jk rowling and the 3 dementors

I think it's very complex, telling people that a woman is just a man with their penis removed was also a terrible thing to say to people.

So the female only spaces you are advocating to my mind come into two categories one is facilities open to the public like changing rooms, loos etc the other institutions such as prison or refuges. The first I don't think can be sucessfully restricted in any way. The second should have rigorous risk assessments of anyone entering them and should exclude or isolate anyone who is or might be violent (which is what they do.)

Trister-i think to reduce this argument to changing rooms and prisons is to discredit all those people (men included) who have concerns. As a feminist you must be aware of the issues.

We are in a position where even claiming that sex is real and gender is not is seen as reactionary.

Only read part of this, if I had a young daughter in the Guides, I would not be happy with a male self identifying sleeping in her tent at camp.

petunia I think I have already stated my views on self identification and gender. But if you want it again I have no problem calling anyone by the pronoun they choose or by accepting they are the gender they choose to present as. I'm certainly not going to start investigating anyone's genitalia to prove anything.

grannysyb if one of the Guides was a lesbian how would you feel about your daughter sharing her tent?

I would say that lesbians dont commit sexual assault in the way men do. And that obviously lesbians are women and therefore should be in a single sex environment with other women/ girls.

It's like saying how would I feel about my daughter being in a room with a tall girl. Tall girls are female, lesbians are female, blond girls are females, conservative women are female. All entitled to single sex spaces enshrined in law.

Surely the main thing is that lesbians are female. I read some research that suggests girls realise their sexual attraction is to females when they're about 13 years old.
I've no problem with girls sharing dorms at brownie/guide or school camps. I remain concerned that the plan is that if a boy who self IDs as a girl, wants to go to brownie/guide camp, they can do so. That neither the brownie/guides nor their parents are allowed to know that a boy will be sharing their bathroom and dorms.
Going away from home is often quite tough for children. Some girls may be starting periods quite young, even when still in brownies and very likely once they move into Guides. Managing all of that is hard enough without discovering one of your dorm mates is a boy.
If it has to happen, that the needs of the self ID boy girl tops the needs of the others, then I don't see how it's either fair or sensible that the group isn't properly prepared.

It was a genuine question because there is prejudice out there.
I have actually taken mixed sex groups on residential trips both in hostels and camping. With the younger children one of the questions we asked was if parents were happy with them sleeping in mixed sex dorms or tents. A lot of parents were quite relaxed about it. For the older children it was a question of discussing with them and stressing personal responsibility, because we were all aware that it would be possible for anyone to move about during the night undetected. One thing that did impress me was the care and support that they gave each other in a group and this was very evident in the mixed dorm sharers. These children were also very relaxed about the opposite sex and friendships were formed which were not dependent on gender.
Although female only organisations may help with the education and progress of girls I do think it's a pity if they are also regarded as providing some sort of protection for girls from boys as if all boys are dangerous.

Not all boys men are dangerous they just dont wear a sign to tell us which ones are. You do understand that mixed changing facilities etc have higher risk of sexual assault.

Some boys are dangerous and some men are very dangerous.
Utopia is not yet here trisher

I have worked with children for 30 years across a range of organisations involving lots of residential, I have never been aware of any service using mixed sex dorms, whether they were run by education, voluntary sector etc.

Why are UNESCO saying that governments around the world must make single sex toilets a priority in order for girls to get an education. It us one of their priority campaigns.

Galaxy it was Woodcraft they are different in that they actively encourage children to take part in discussion and decisions about how things are run. It may have been a request from the children that they share dorms. Interestingly it tends to produce some very outspoken and vocal girls who will when faced with someone who tries to impose things on them during sessions will loudly shout out "That's not the Woodcraft way!" They are amazing.

Galaxy I don't know why UNESCO are doing that. It is interesting because of course the reason given in this country for girls being absent during menstruation was the cost of sanitary protection, which led to the Period Poverty campaign I was involved in and which won free products for schools www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/period-poverty-campaign-free-sanitary-schools-amika-george-a9285346.html

They are doing it because its safer for them.

To anyone who is new to this debate, and is wondering if they can take action of some kind -
here is an article with helpful suggestions from Maya Forstater, who is currently in a legal challenge after losing her job for not believing that men can be women.

medium.com/@MForstater/standing-with-jk-rowling-what-can-you-do-b341b324a4b9

www.theyworkforyou.com is a website where you can find out who your elected representatives are.
It also makes it easy to email them, via the website.

Actually Galaxy the UNESCO site doesn't mention safety it mentions menstrual hygiene and seperation issues which I suspect in some cases may be cultural. Remember there are still societies where women who are menstruating are considered unclean and a threat to men.

trisher, the woodcraft groups operatively differently than guides or brownies, this much is easily understood. It's very different to ask children whether we wish to have mixed dorms, than to have a girls group go away,, totally unaware they have a boy dressed as a girl in their midst. If it must happen, surely parents and children are entitled not only to know but to express their wishes . Woodcraft encourages and operates with full participation, so does our Brownie group.

It sounds as though your dislike of 'uniform' organisations leads you to conclude that the woodcraft way is the best. My daughters and their friends did both. They loved Brownies and were keen to maintain the expectations of behaviour expected there.
One size doesn't fit all. I would be very unhappy if my 7 year old daughter was confronted by a boy in the dorm/shower etc, if she hadn't known that a boy had been allowed to join them.
There is such a lot of evidence that confirms girls benefit hugely from single sex organisations, even schools. Mine went mixed primary and comprehensives, I wouldn't have wanted any other experience for them but - I do understand why the parents of some girls choose a single sex education.

Iam64 I understand that my point is it isn't necessarily dangerous to have mixed dorms or boys sharing with girls. I think one thing that Woodcraft does well is develop a healthy respect in boys for girls and vice versa. Girls also do well I think because the traditional idea that the loudest voice (which is usually male) gets to say more is not acceptable, everyone gets a turn to speak and they take advantage of that.
I do know about the evidence for single sex schools but I sometimes wonder what happens when they leave? Do they find it difficult to work with men? I was sent to a co-ed grammar school because my mother thought it would help me socialise. It didn't really, but then perhaps I would have been even less confident if all I'd known was girls.
I do wonder if you trust your daughter to do activities which may be quite high risk like abseiling with an organisation shouldn't you trust them to protect her at all times?

Why are sexual assaults higher in mixed changing areas than single sex ones.
I wouldn't trust an organisation that thought mixed dorms were of the same level of risk as single sex dorms.
I know this is off topic but as there are a lot of people discussing womrns safety here, has anyone seen the information about wrestling that is just coming out - seems similar to the allegations that came out around Hollywood, numerous allegations again British and American wrestlers.

Galaxy, it's so depressing to hear about the allegations about wrestling/abuse. Not surprising because it's every single organisation that involves power between coach/director and child/adult.
I don't see it as off topic because it's relevant to the discussion here about power. There is no avoiding the fact that men who have lived as men for say 30 years, have not lived the female experience.

As regards unisex changing rooms I looked this up. It was difficult to find the real figures rather than just newspaper reports. I did find this from Mersey police. I think it is interesting there is one male and one female rape. The report also talks about facilities like shops which have one changing room for everyone. www.merseyside.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/foi-media/merseyside/disclosure_2019/sexual-offences-in-unisex-toilets-dm2019-0044.pdf