jk rowling and the 3 dementors

I went to a talk by transwoman Christine Burns, who had written a book.
CB was totally convincing as a well-presented older lady.

A local transwoman I've met, tho, comes across as a man in the way they move and talk.

I understand your desire to exclude prisons on the basis they're dumping grounds and need a total overhaul. In reality, prisons are as likely to have a total overhaul as I am to win the lottery. (not least because I don't do the lottery)

We imprison too many people in this country. We end people to prison who in truth, need secure mental health/therapeutic facilities, moving on to open facilities. We desperately need our Probation Service to be properly funded and resourced. It was founded over a 100 years ago based on the aim to 'advise, assist and befriend'. This government privatised it and have had to renationalise. That's the service who will support and challenge trans offenders.

No trisher, I don’t tell him that HE can’t believe.
He can believe what he likes, he’s not doing me any harm.

See it as patronising if you want but it's my honest opinion of real people I've actually seen and worked with. Can't pretend it was all perfect because it wasn't.

How patronising Jane10. There are women who look quite masculine and some trans women are very glamorous.

Trisher I'm afraid I could be absolutely 100% sure of the original gender of the last transwoman I met. The poor soul. I know it sounds cruel but the bottom line was she looked like a pantomime dame. I have seen others who have looked a bit more convincing but clearly not always women.

Jane10 we did have a debate about appearances earlier in this thread. I dispute that anyone can be 100% certain about anyone's gender just by looking.
I woud love to think there could be a debate petunia but while we have deeply entrenched views on both sides I can't see that happening. So I suppose things will muddle along much as they have been doing

I think that the debate around toilets and who should go where demonstrates just how people have different attitudes in different circumstances. Which is exactly why the bigger issue of gender recognition needs debating, without fear of reprisals from the activists. We don't know what the majority of women want, or men come to that. But we cant just open up sport, prisons. employment etc. and set children on the road to permanent medication, surgery and infertility without that open, frank discussion.

Just a point Trisher but by no means are all transwomen imperceptible as women. I have to say that in my experience the transwomen I have met have been very obviously not originally female.

Galaxy
I have explained I mis-used that word, bullying. I meant persistent. I never thought you were being bullied

Trisher

I used the word bullying in a clumsy manner....I could have just said another word but couldn't think atm...I didn't mean you are bullying, more persistent.
glad you did not take offense

Some will, some won't Galaxy. And you won't be able to tell who is a trans women anyway so why will it matter? It's happening now. It's not a new thing.

Are you saying transwomen wont respect womens boundaries then? Because the ones I am talking to will. I wont stop them I will just be really sad that some people think womens boundaries are up for grabs. But it was always the case. We often change behaviour by the culture we create and by having laws to enforce that. You cant stop everyone drink driving or not wearing a seatbelt but you create a culture where it becomes unacceptable. We create culture where women are allowed to say no , and people support them in that.

The problem is Galaxy that even if you do that trans women will use the women's facility because they believe they are women. And how will you stop them?
Prisons I exclude because what is needed is a radical reorganisation of a system which is just a way of dumping people.

It will be enforced in the way it's always been enforced. By people respecting the rights of women to have single sex places. It's why the majority of men dont walk into womens spaces, no one is stopping them physically. They mostly have respect for womens boundaries.
There was the horrific case of the 10 year old girl assaulted by a transwomen in Morrisons toilet. Its also not ok to say apart from prisons, prisons are a key part of this debate. I guess it depends what number of women you think is ok to be assaulted to meet the needs of men. As I have said this debate keeps getting dragged back to toilets, which is the least difficult issue to solve. Single sex and mixed sex. Solved it I am a genius. What is wrong with that solution trisher?
I dont think transwomen are dangerous, I think they are the same level of risk as men. I would be saying the same if someone suggested men with ginger hair used female spaces, I dont think men with ginger hair are dangerous particularly either.
I don't want people to be persecuted strangely enough, I want trans people to be protected from discrimination but I want that for women too. If you provide only mixed sex facilities (and I at least think that is more honest than saying some men can access womens spaces) then you exclude many many women from those spaces. It's also about womens privacy and dignity and the right to consent.

Apart from the bullying I find pinkquartz's question interesting and I think there are a number of reasons. Firstly my inclusive feminist beliefs that there are men who have the same beliefs as I do and I find it hard to demonise them. Then some of the women I have met who were violent and/or who encouraged violence in their sons. I don't necessarily blame those women by the way it is a lot to do with the environment they inhabit. Then the way some young women are choosing to behave in their relationships and becoming bullies.
This has led me to look at society and say it isn't just enough to try and make women equal or the same as men we have to change the culture.
And what I see as far as transpeople are concerned is another minority who are being persecuted.
I have also looked at this carefully and still have these questions which no one has answered
How many women have been assaulted by trans women using a toilet changing room or other space (apart from prisons)
If spaces are designated as women only how will this be policed and the law enforced? (I rule out refuges in this as they have vigorous risk assessments)

Came across this on Twitter. There's a link to a youtube posting by a trans woman, Blaire White. Her argument is essentially this: if there were no biological sex, transitioning would not be needed. She calls JK Rowling's opinion "objectively true."

Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread.

The morning papers are reporting that a police force issued a request for information about "anyone acting suspiciously" after a woman was assaulted in the street. They failed to mention that the person who committed the assault was a man dressed as a woman
I usually find myself defending police forces accused of "pc gone mad", I loathe the phrase at any time. This incident does tend to confirm that the senior officer who made the nonsensical decision not to give an accurate description of the offender, feared being accused of not supporting the LGBT community.

I dont find Trisher bullying pinkquartz, I appreciate I can only speak for myself. Trisher is arguing her point of view as am I. I would actually fight for her right to do that.

It impinges on womens rights to have single sex spaces, it affects prisons , sports, crime statistics, all the things we have discussed for hours. That's how it affects womens rights. It's why the 14 year old took the council to court and won as they were impinging on her rights.
There is also no such thing as acting like a woman, that's just stereotypes, another thing which affects women.

A woman being a woman is not a belief it is real.
A man believing that he is a woman is a belief.......and not real

we can allow men to dress and act as if they are women but we can't make them women......it is not possible.

Why so bullying about this Trisher why so invested?

So many wrongs in the world that need sorting out.
why this one?

you really do not need to respond. I shouldn't ask....but why is a woman going against other women on behalf of men ?

Can't say "No" to what *Galaxy"? How does someone else saying, acting and living as a woman impinge on anyone else's rights?

It's a clash of rights Trisher. Women cant translate their beliefs into actions either. They cant say no. That's a breach of their human rights.

So what you are in effect saying is you can believe what you like but you can't translate your beliefs into actions because my beliefs don't coincide with yours. Isn't that a breech of human rights?

I am not telling transwomen they cant believe they are women. They can obviously believe what they want. The belief that men can change into women is causing enormous distress to women so I am allowed to say I don't think much of your beliefs if they cause pain and suffering to people. It is not me telling people they cant believe what they want. It is women who are being threatened for what they believe. Dress how you want present how you want but please dont bully me into believing what you believe. I am using the generic you there.