jk rowling and the 3 dementors

A belief though is always to do with what is not provable or tangible.
Religions are belief systems.
All is taken in faith as we cannot prove what we believe or don't believe.
I don't think a discussion on Trans issue can run along a similar line.
There are women, we can prove this and there are men.
There are also men that believe that they are women.
But how can they prove this?

I don't care what religion anyone believes as long as they don't enforce it onto me.
And the trouble with the current TWA is that they want to force their belief that they are women onto me by insisting they can access places that are for women only.
You cannot prove that a man is a woman.
I can and will accept that a man feels he wants to be a woman and wants to live as a woman but I cannot allow him to be in my woman only space unless he is living as a woman and TWAs seem to be far too aggressive to be seen as women.

And do you tell him he can't believe in God PamelaJ? Or is he permitted to decide for himself? Those on this thread who don't believe transwomen are women think they can dictate beliefs to others.

Actually trisher I do tell our vicar that I don’t believe in God.
He doesn’t seem to be too bothered as long as I keep being the treasurer and paying his expenses!

If your beliefs cause pain and suffering to other people than I'm afraid I don't think much of them. But you are entitled to believe as you wish. But if you don't believe in God would you go up to a religious person and tell them they can't believe or worship because you don't believe? Because that is effectively what you are doing to trans women denying them the right to think, believe and be what they wish to be.
Now there was in the 70s a great debate about the word "woman" and if it demeans women because of its source. There were a lot of proposals around for a different name, including Wimmin. So perhaps those who want a term which refers only to natal women should adopt that and leave woman to the trans women and those of us who don't mind..
But after all "What's in a name?"

Yes galaxy, I started this thread. Ive been following transgender issues for a few years now, sparked by two separate incidents that are etched in my memory for all time. One was report I read about a woman in her sixties pushed hard to the ground by a trans woman at a meeting to discuss the gender recognition act and how it could affect women! the other I was actually involved with at my place of work. That incident shook me to the core and encouraged me to read around the matter.

I don't think the media is mainly to blame for shutting down people's(women's) concerns to be honest. Its the trans activists who do that. Particularly on social media. Some of the stuff they write about TERFS and women in general is truly vile. And some of the activists have views of women, particularly women who speak out, that if enacted, would put them in prison for a very long time.

All our institutions have been influenced by the current obsession with identity politics, particularly around trans issues. There must have been some very fierce lobbying by the trans activists on very important people to effect these fundamental changes. This is why we have leaflets talking about people with cervix's and the one that got JK Rowling into bother. its why all forms we fill in ask for gender not sex of applicant. Its why the Brownie organisation got into hot water about allowing trans girls to share sleeping accommodation but not telling the parents of the girls, its why violent male sex offenders prisoners can state they are now women and get transferred to the female prison, and so on and so on.

By the way, I do believe we have Catlin Jenner posing naked for playboy soon to look forward to.

Oh my god I am so sorry I have just seen the length of that post

It deeply upsets many women to say that men can change into women. I dont believe transwomen are women I am sorry if that upsets people, I dont believe in God either and I am sure that upsets people. It is not an open mind to ask people to chant transwomen are women.
Women have tried again and again to come to the discussion, there was recently a documentary made on the issue with children. The documentary maker has years of experience of covering issues in Syria, the Israel/Palestine debate, he always speaks to both sides on the issue, both sides know he is speaking to the other side and accept this. He said (sorry I have forgotten his name) he had never experienced anything like making the documentary about children with gender dysphoria. He wanted to speak to gender critical feminists and to those from transgender organisations (poor wording from me here I know) to get both sides of debate. Those from organisations such as Mermaids refused to speak to him because of the gender critical feminists he was talking to, in some cases they said it was too problematic to engage with him because of the tweets these women had liked. He had never experienced such demands and he had covered violent conflicts that dated back years. The women on the other hand knew that he was speaking to those organisations they disagreed with but were more than happy to participate in the documentary. He was utterly shaken by his experience, his conclusion was if you really believe what you are saying you are always happy to to talk to an investigative journalist.
Was it Petunia who started this thread, I want to say thanks if so.

I don't think most people are saying don't discuss it. I think there is a bit of bias in the media who are looking for stories (they admit lower down in that article that the number of staff complaining is a minority but it is "sizeable" which could mean anything). There was a link to a story that most NHS clinics have 2 year waiting lists for trans people and they are buying hormones on-line. I think there is a discussion to be had about children and treatment but I think one of the problems is that some women who want discussion begin by asserting they don't think trans women are women which immediately upsets some people. I think if you want to discuss this you have to come to the table with an open mind.

I also think the focus on toilets is deliberate (again not by you) it's easier to paint people as obsessed with toilets than discuss sport or crime stats, or the issues relating to men threatening women with impunity and congratulations, or the issue of young girls and autism, or the whistleblowing coming from the clinics.

They are not forgotten you provide mixed sex and single sex. What about women and girls who have been assaulted, women who want privacy, women from different cultures. Do we abandon those women just to have gender neutral facilities. I am offering compromise. But it's being turned down.
Its telling women that they cant speak and if they do they will be threatened, assaulted or loose their job. It's as old as the hills.

So what about father's and daughters Galaxy are those girls just to be forgotten? And what about when the boy reaches the age that they are not permitted in women's changing areas (it was 8 in my local pool). Do we just abandon those children because women need to feel safe?
It's nothing like "Burn the witch" which was a complicated mix of anti-catholicism, family finance and medical progress. And men were sentenced as witches as well. They were rarely burned in the UK, usually hung.

I feel I have massively simplified the Tavistock issues there but we need to be able to talk about these things without threat. I just dont understand why people (again not you) get upset about women raising concerns about the care of transgender children, why would you not want these things discussed freely.

My comment was to your post of 11:11:57

Well said Galaxy

The whistleblowing into the tavistock that was reported on Newsnight this week showed concerns raised about homophobic parents. E.g that parents were bringing children to the clinic because they didnt want a gay son. Feminists are raising red flags about this because they are progressive .

Yes that's why mothers take their young sons into female toilets. Some men are dangerous to women and children. Why you would want to expose more children and women to that I don't know. I dont mean you specifically just for clarity.
I too take a historical view, often when the oppressed make progress there is a backlash, I think that part of this a backlash against wonens rights and gay rights. Historically some men and in fact society as a whole has never liked women saying no. Historically the JKR debate is just 'burn the witch' of the modern day.

I agree with JK Rowling. This political correctness has all gone too far. If a man wants to be known as a woman, let him, but no matter how much surgery a person has, they cannot alter their chromosomes, and therefore cannot ever be a full woman.

Galaxy I had a look at the Times figures couldn't access them but found a report on another paper. However the figure did not give any figures on the gender of the victims. One of the things I noticed on the Merseyside figures was the rape of a boy under 13. It makes you wonder how safe mens changing rooms are for children. It is well documented that men and boys don't report abuse.
I was also thinking about single parents. I brought up 3 boys and I think it was more acceptable for me to take them into the women's toilets than it is for my son to take his daughter into the men's. They usually use the disabled toilet which is always unisex. I still remember when my sons were 9 they were too old to use the women's changing room at our local pool, but I was never comfortable watching them go off into the men's.
I tend to take a historical view of all these things. Many thought when working class men got the vote society would crumble, they thought the same when women got the vote. When homosexuality was made legal there was a lot of promiscuity and many people forecast the end of the family and children being recruited. These things didn't happen. So I view the transgender battle as something that will pass and eventually we will have a society very similar to the one we have now. It woud be nice to think there will be radical change and we would become more inclusive and less confrontational but I doubt it.

Both sets of figures are interesting galaxy and trisher. However, the Merseyside figures only include specific gender free facilities. The Times include all facilities. It could be that the Merseyside figures were the only assaults in toilet and changing areas for that time frame across the area, but its probably not. so we have no way of knowing whether they are better or worse than overall figures.

however, 13 assaults in 2 years is 13 too far.

As to 134 assaults report by the times, with 120 taking place in gender free facilities, I think serious questions need to be asked and resolved.

The toilet situation is always brought out in the transgender debate and is dismissed as nonsense. These two reports do not mention transgendered individuals assaulting anyone or being assaulted but if you open up toilets and changing rooms for use of either sex, it puts temptation in the way of the perpetrator. It makes their life easy. Both sets of figures are sobering

The Times gained figures using the freedom of information act, for the period 2017 - 2018 there were 134 assaults in changing rooms. 120 took place in mixed sex 14 in single sex. If anyone is interested just google times unisex changing rooms.
I think you are right Iam64, I am a little unclear if its coach/trainee or wrestler/fan. To be honest there has always been a history of drug/alcohol abuse in wrestling and obviously in WWE a culture of objectification of women, so it's no surprise really. My sons are fans so I have to endure it.

As regards unisex changing rooms I looked this up. It was difficult to find the real figures rather than just newspaper reports. I did find this from Mersey police. I think it is interesting there is one male and one female rape. The report also talks about facilities like shops which have one changing room for everyone. www.merseyside.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/foi-media/merseyside/disclosure_2019/sexual-offences-in-unisex-toilets-dm2019-0044.pdf

Galaxy, it's so depressing to hear about the allegations about wrestling/abuse. Not surprising because it's every single organisation that involves power between coach/director and child/adult.
I don't see it as off topic because it's relevant to the discussion here about power. There is no avoiding the fact that men who have lived as men for say 30 years, have not lived the female experience.

Why are sexual assaults higher in mixed changing areas than single sex ones.
I wouldn't trust an organisation that thought mixed dorms were of the same level of risk as single sex dorms.
I know this is off topic but as there are a lot of people discussing womrns safety here, has anyone seen the information about wrestling that is just coming out - seems similar to the allegations that came out around Hollywood, numerous allegations again British and American wrestlers.

Iam64 I understand that my point is it isn't necessarily dangerous to have mixed dorms or boys sharing with girls. I think one thing that Woodcraft does well is develop a healthy respect in boys for girls and vice versa. Girls also do well I think because the traditional idea that the loudest voice (which is usually male) gets to say more is not acceptable, everyone gets a turn to speak and they take advantage of that.
I do know about the evidence for single sex schools but I sometimes wonder what happens when they leave? Do they find it difficult to work with men? I was sent to a co-ed grammar school because my mother thought it would help me socialise. It didn't really, but then perhaps I would have been even less confident if all I'd known was girls.
I do wonder if you trust your daughter to do activities which may be quite high risk like abseiling with an organisation shouldn't you trust them to protect her at all times?

trisher, the woodcraft groups operatively differently than guides or brownies, this much is easily understood. It's very different to ask children whether we wish to have mixed dorms, than to have a girls group go away,, totally unaware they have a boy dressed as a girl in their midst. If it must happen, surely parents and children are entitled not only to know but to express their wishes . Woodcraft encourages and operates with full participation, so does our Brownie group.

It sounds as though your dislike of 'uniform' organisations leads you to conclude that the woodcraft way is the best. My daughters and their friends did both. They loved Brownies and were keen to maintain the expectations of behaviour expected there.
One size doesn't fit all. I would be very unhappy if my 7 year old daughter was confronted by a boy in the dorm/shower etc, if she hadn't known that a boy had been allowed to join them.
There is such a lot of evidence that confirms girls benefit hugely from single sex organisations, even schools. Mine went mixed primary and comprehensives, I wouldn't have wanted any other experience for them but - I do understand why the parents of some girls choose a single sex education.