jk rowling and the 3 dementors

No it would operate in the way its operated since women first campaigned for womens toilets ( they burned the first ones down I believe) if a bloke accidentally walks into the female toilet, someone will say mate the gents is over there. He will usually say oh God sorry. If someone challenges a woman who is in the womans toilet she says I am a woman and off we go. We manage, I accidentally walked into the male toilet last time I was in a pub, I felt so idiotic that I failed to speak, fortunately the 2 blokes in there felt it necessary to say sorry for being exactly where they should have been. We managed to sort it out and I went to the female toilet. It's not difficult.
We legislate for the minority of men who are violent that was part of the reason for sex segregation. And actually toilets are simple to sort, you have male female and gender neutral. The real difficulties continue to be sport, prisons, crime statistics (something which often gets overlooked) and so on.
We legislate all the time on the fact that some people are abusive, all the time, it's why we have DBS checks.

petunia so do we legislate on the grounds that some people are violent or abusive whatever their gender? Or do we legislate for the majority who are not any of those things? Does the fact that some transwomen are violent mean that. others are prevented from using certain changing rooms and natal women who don't conform to stereotypes have to carry evidence of their birth gender to use those changing rooms. Of course then there is the possibility that some trans women conform more with make up and hairstyles than natal women. So would everyone have to carry ID or face inspection?

I also think it's very important to say that transwomen were sold this crock of nonsense, in order to access treatment they were told to live like a woman, access womens spaces etc. There is no such thing as living like a woman, its sexist nonsense and it's not fair that transwomen were told this.

Well we debate it like we have on here. We let people speak. We acknowledge that people hold different views to us. We dont make threats. We say things like biological sex is real and the sky doesnt fall in.

In all these discussions about men thinking they are women and women looking like men and where should they go, we are missing the elephant in the room. While some trans women have the best possible intentions, there are some that don't. These are the ones that cause concern. Unfortunately they are all lumped together. There are violent and unpredictable men, manipulative men, autogynephilies, bullies, together with men who wish to compete against women because its so much easier. Self identification opens up previously held social barriers and anyone who objects is instantly put on the back foot.

we now have a proportion of more politically aware, more aggressive trans woman who is determined to get their own way be it in sport, in employment, in women's spaces. So confident are they in their delusion that some don't even attempt to look like women. One quick look at some of the responses JKT got on twitter will show who these people are.

Fuelled by the massive support of identity politics from all political colours, and various support organisations,this individual pushes at the very limits of our tolerance and shrieks transphobe if someone , such a JKR pushes back. Our problems are, how do we know the difference between the person who has gender dysphoria and those that have their own agenda that is detrimental to biological women. And how we can debate this issue sensibly without threats and tantrums from the transactivists.

They are women. No one cares what they look like. I have no accepted idea of what a woman should look like.

Of course he was responsible for his attacks Iam64 the degree of responsibility would of course depend upon a psychiatric evaluation and I won't pretend I have any expertise at all in that area. I agree many women who are imprisoned are there because of multiple problems, but so are men.
How many times do I have to say that any assault by any person on another person is wrong before people take that in? I have never condoned violence of any kind be it individual, group, or state sponsored.
I see no one who is advocating these safe spaces for women is going to explain to me how they would deal with women who do not conform with the accepted idea of how a woman should look.

trisher, at what point do you say an individual becomes responsible for their own actions? I have direct knowledge of two trans women who used their status as trans to intimidate, assault and control others.
You say the only attacks you have seen referred to as being carried out by trans women have been "attacks in prison where there is a culture which often exposes women to risk". Research and my experience has been that many women who are imprisoned have serious mental health problems, addictions, and a very high proportion experienced physical, emotional and sexual abuse in their adult lives as well as when they were children. The attacks you refer to were, if memory is correct, committed by at least one man who self ID as a woman and had a history of committing sexual offences.

Was he responsible for his attacks?

pinkquartz However A 6 foot tall, short haired person, with muscles,and flat shoes is not presenting as female
But she is female. That is the point. She comes from a family of tall people, her brothers are 6ft 2 and 6ft 4. She has the family trait of easily gaining weight which she chooses to tackle by exercise not diet, so she has muscles. She has never liked make up. But you have already cast her as trans gender. She isn't. Just because people don't look like the accepted way women should look it doesn't mean they are not born women. It just goes to show how divisive having toilets that discriminate will be.
The only atacks I have seen refered to by transwomen have been attacks in prisons where there is a culture which often exposes women to risk.

Trisher

many of your comments are disengenuous to my mind.
If a TW is presenting and living as a female then why not just use a safe female toilet or changing space?
This has been the way for decades.
However A 6 foot tall, short haired person, with muscles,and flat shoes is not presenting as female.
So there is the hard nub of it.
She should not have to appear as a stereotyped female but also will not be safe possibly in a mans toilet.
So what is the solution?
More discussion is needed BUT the answer is not to erode all female safe spaces for the incredibly small amount of people who are choosing to live this way.
Also if your friend still has a penis why can't they just use the mens loo?
why make life harder?
Is this issue a crusade?

If I saw a person as you describe peacefully using a loo I wouldn't be worried or concerned.
When someone is looking for trouble you can usually tell you know.
If your friend is a peace loving individual then I doubt she will be challenged beyond a quick glance.
All of this has been stirred up so much by aggressive TW's who to be blunt behave like men do.

And I don't understand why you don't understand the need for safe female spaces.
I don't need to look for evidence that TW's attack women...It never entered my head..but it has happened and has been reported in newspapers.
Because there is always someone who does the bad thing and spoils it for everyone.

BTW you mention "feminist thinking" as if it were just one idea...feminist thinking is actuallyas varied as the people who are feminists

Iam64 I apologise if you thought I was preaching but you did say blaming the patriachy wouldn't help the majority of men who don't rape and murder.
I must say that if we are looking at majority views and actions the majority of transwomen do not threaten women in any way and are in fact a very abused minority.
As for the patriarchy setting groups against each other look at the comments about the link I posted to WIRE and "Smash the Patriarchy".
I still don't understand two things about those who think it is necessary to provide segregated toilets and changing rooms for natal women. Firstly what evidence is there that the trans women who have been using female toilets for years, both before operations were available and after, have committed any assaults on women? And secondly how will you identify the women admitted to spaces reserved for natal women? Will my friend who is 6ft tall, strongly built (particularly when she's going to the gym) with very short hair who wears trousers and shirts with flat shoes have to carry her birth certificate with her for fear she is challenged when using the facility? Or will you simply say she has to use the unisex toilet because she doesn't look like a 'proper' girl?

trisher - I do understand the patriarchy, honest.
I'm not sure why you set yourself against other feminists in this way.
It's as though you believe you're the only person who views the world in the right way, that the rest of us don't get it, don't understand reality and only you can help us change out ways and belief systems
A men's group meet at my house every two weeks, and have done for 25 years. Well, currently, they meet on zoom of course.
Our town had one of the first groups set up to support men who were physically and emotionally abusive towards their female partners. The man who set it up had completed one of the courses we (women) had been running.
Its rather patronising and dismissive towards other feminists posting here, to suggest we just don't get it. We have a range of views on this and we're entitled to hold them.

I wasnt saying why on earth wouldn't I be to you , more a question to myself if you see what I mean.

You said the patriarchy would set them against womens groups. I am saying that feminists such as myself support those groups. I think men are entitled to single sex places for privacy and dignity.

Did I say you were against mens groups Galaxy?

I am not against mens group at all. Why on earth would I be. Support groups for mens mental health, prostate cancer etc and guess what I dont think women should be anywhere near those groups.

Iam64 in that statement you show that you have no understanding of how patriachy works. Patriachy is a system which means some people are valued above others. The most valued people are of course rich white men, but that does not mean all men prosper under the patriachy indeed there is evidence that men are suffering more now than ever in the past. There are more male suicides, young men are acheiving less in education and cancer deaths are higher. This has resulted in the formation of mens groups seeking to support men. The patriachy of course would set these against women's groups because that is how it works. Feminist thinking says if men become more able to be open and honest about their feelings and are encouraged to recognise that masculinity does not need to always be demonstrating strength and dominance men will not only become less violent but will be happier and live longer.

trisher, one problem with blaming the patriarchy without looking at men who rape and murder, is the vast majority of men who don’t rape and murder.

trisher

So there is to be no adjusting anyone's thinking? I would hope everyone was able to learn more and to adjust, if not necessarily completely change their views.
Any attacks by anyone on another person whatever their sexuality, gender or body form is wrong.
But while some women are focussing their fight for equality on the aggression and arguments found on twitter others are really trying to stop the backlash and change policies. The establishment, men in power like Trump and other leaders are the people we should be opposing. There may be a few transwomen who are a danger to women but most aren't . I've written about how to tackle on-line abuse,it's up to the individual what they do. But demonstrating and writing about the real restrictions women and LGBT people still face and maintaining that fight is more important.. www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/11/from-slurs-to-sexual-violence-women-human-rights-defenders-come-under-global-attack/

This is why I added the bit about ‘adjusting thinking’ to my post, it was in response to trisher’s post.

Why on earth would I want you ( or anyone else) to be ‘swapping hate mail’ ( as you suggest) ??

pinkquartz..spot on, safe spaces for women are an absolute must.

SueDonim it's quite simple whatever transwomen are called, whatever spaces are made available, whatever small adjustments are made, women, transexuals, homosexuals and other minorities will continue to suffer and be killed unless we can change things radically. Because that is what patriachy encourages and that is how it works.
Galaxy the law already rules against rape unfortunately because of the way it is implemented and our confrontational legal system it doesn't work. It's a patriarchal system.

I still don’t see the point of your Q, Trisher. Unless you’re saying that trans-women will still commit murder at the same rate as men, which appears to be the case so far.

The point of female safe spaces is for women to have somewhere to seek sanctuary. It’s cloud-cuckoo land to think that men will stop raping, murdering and abusing women if only we were nice to them.

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never sent hate mail and nor am I right-wing, but neither of those things has resulted in a world of peace ‘n love, sadly.

Trisher I have said a number of times how letting women set their boundaries will help. Teaching men that when women say no the law will support them. Teaching men that if you call women terf and threaten them with rape you wont be hailed for being progressive.
Also I think it was a good thing for example that children with disabilities were included in mainstream education - do I think its stopped discrimination and some awful things happening to children and adults with disabilities- no. Sometimes doing something is just right it doesnt also have to solve all structural inequalities.

No one has explained to me how giving women a space to change their clothes in will stop them being attacked on buses or in the street, nor for that matter how it will stop domestic violence.

but it doesn't matter whether it does or doesn't stop women being attacked at home if it will help young girls and women to be protected from being uncomfortable in public places like toilets and changing rooms.

Young teen girls go through so much with being teased by boys of their age, who are often emotionally less mature. I can still remember the awful fuss when my breasts grew and I had to wear a bra......boys would ping the back strap and call out all kinds of embarrassing comments. It is minor and also not minor. It makes you feel vulnerable and bullies can pick up on this and exploit it.

We need to feel safe in as many places as possible.

Domestic Violence is a complex issue and is also often cultural. You can't solve it by keeping female only spaces but that doesn't take away any importance of female only spaces.

TW are safer with female only spaces surely? taking them away just opens up more places for men to intimiate and attack.

I cannot follow the logic of gender neutral spaces, which save nothing and no-one.

trisher, I don't want to perpetuate some kind of polarised discussion but here I go. Out there in the real world, good young women I know who were brave enough to attempt to broaden the discussion about feminism, women's rights and trans have been subjected to horrific threats of violence and rape, by members of the trans community. I don't find threats of violence of that kind area constructive way of attempting to broaden a discussion.

lemongrove if you mean am I trying to understand and reconcile the posts I read on this thread well of course I am. But if you are asking me to enter into swapping hate-mail with people because they are different to me, or to condemn all transwomen because there are some who post unacceptable things on social media then I can't do that. No one has explained to me how giving women a space to change their clothes in will stop them being attacked on buses or in the street, nor for that matter how it will stop domestic violence. The idea seems to be that if trans women are stopped from using women's spaces men will somehow have more respect for women and I really don't understand that. So until I do understand I don't see how I can change my views. But I am still willing to listen to an explanation.
SueDonim you posted that homicide victims were women murdered by men and I asked if that would stop when transwomen conformed to your views.
I may be a lone voice on here but out in the real world 4th generation feminists are standing solid with minority groups and advocating acceptance of differences.