jk rowling and the 3 dementors

lemongrove, there have been others agreeing with trisher on previous threads about this, and one or two of them earlier in this thread.
I expect they just don't have the tenacity that trisher does.
It's interesting to me to have someone willing to share their views on this and to debate, and I appreciate trisher doing so.

I dont want transwomen to conform to my thinking trisher, and transwomen dont all believe the gender nonsense anyway. I want womens rights that are enshrined in law to be preserved. I couldn't give a monkey how people present or dress or what name they call themselves. I dont want to be made to believe something though. I would fight for people to hold religious beliefs for example but I would be quite perturbed if they said I had to believe them too.
I am really pleased for example that transwomen have just received protection against discrimination within employment. I wish though that women were protected from employment discrimination for saying sex is real.
I dont want trisher to adjust her thinking lemongrove. It's fine for people to have different views. If people acknowledged that maybe we would all be less tribal and entrenched and I dont mean just in this debate.

And it's dreadful for the teenage girls in the school gender neutral toilets. If they are in a cubicle for more than a couple of minutes, there are teenage boys shouting "She's on her period" and the girl has to emerge to face that.

Teenage girls are embarrassed and sensitive enough about periods when they first start them as it is. Girls and women everywhere should have their own female-only spaces.

I think you will find ( are finding) that you are a lone voice on this subject here on GN trisher ......after reading all the posts that don’t agree with yours, are you able to understand why and perhaps ‘adjust your thinking’ accordingly? You seem to be asking everyone to think again ( come around to your viewpoint.) It won’t happen.

trisher I have no idea what will stop the violence.
That's why I'm not in favour of letting Tom, Dick and Harry identify themselves into females' single-sex spaces.

If you have no plan for stopping the violence, other than throwing females to the dogs, you need to start having a good think.

Feminists used to hope that gender-neutral upbringings for children would help with that, but of course the majority of parents don't do it.

Now schools' policies are supposedly gender-neutral, meaning children shouldn't be treated in a stereotyped way based on their sex, yet they are encouraged to believe they may be in the wrong body if they don't fit sex stereotypes.

I don’t understand your question, Trisher.

And that will stop SueDonim when you have made trans women confrom to your views will it?
FarNorth so what do you suggest will stop the violence? I'm willing to listen.

While the idea of a gender fluid inclusive tolerant community has some merit, it is not based on our reality. We still need some boundaries. Boundaries and definitions are there for a reason-otherwise your neighbour may build an extension to his house on your driveway, just because he doesn't recognise your boundaries.

Definitions are there for a reason too.
If you cant define define something, be it a woman, you cant define what is not a woman. we as people are roughly half male and half female.

Gender is not real, biological sex is. Biology is visible, measurable, repeatable. Gender is whatever the person desires. I believe a study at the BBC some time ago found that there were over 70 different genders working there. To rely on that to plan public services, health services, benefit services etc. is the path to madness. Each group has different needs. Its no good inviting a woman for a prostate examination or a man for a smear.

And most of those female homicide victims will have been murdered by men.

Have you tried telling trans people and their allies, and maybe even men, to focus their energies on sorting this out?

When you've all done that, you can let us know.

Get the approach sorted trisher, get the violence stopped, then we can think about sharing spaces.

It is all of those things of course petunia and we can tinker about with things, argue about if a transwoman is a real woman or not, if it's OK to say people who menstruate instead of women, who is allowed in which space and any number of other things or we can look at things and say there needs to be a change here and we need to alter our approach to everything We need to accept others and not fight with them and it doesn't matter how you choose to identify yourself if you stand for inclusivity and tolerance then we stand together.
Of course it is young men being violent and usually it is young men who are the targets of that violence. Young men are also more likely to committ suicide than women and more likely to be murdered
As in previous years, the majority of homicide victims in the year ending March 2018 were male (69%, 499 victims) and 31% were female (227 victims).
The number of male victims has increased at a faster rate than females in recent years. The figure of 499 male victims of homicide was an increase of 54% from 324 in the year ending March 2015. In contrast, the number of female homicide victims had remained broadly flat until increasing by 49 homicides (28%, excluding Hillsborough victims) in the year ending March 2018
I just wish we could find some way of utilising all the energy that is being expended arguing about imagined threats into a force that would work to help with the problem.

I agree galaxy. Violence is almost, but not exclusively the province of young men, and on both extremes of the political divide. Why? Is it alcohol? Social media?Video games? Social upbringing? Or all of those things.

Allowing women to say this is my body and when I am naked,I want privacy and dignity, and respecting those rights might actually encourage some men to see women as human beings.

Those right wing extremists on the streets are all men trisher. Women are not responsible for them. In fact they are a prime example of male violence. Nobody is telling me what to think. No right wing conspiracy. Women are able to see what is happening for themselves. I have explained that letting women establish their own boundaries and not letting boundaries be decided by men is a tiny step towards reducing violence against women. Can you explain how not allowing women to give consent is going to reduce violence against women.

So am I the only person here who thinks that what is really happening is that because people are being divided into separate groups and blaming other groups for violence and oppression rather than looking for compromise and acceptance there is a real growth of extremism in all sections of society, which threatens most of all minority groups. That this is primarily right wing violence and it is much worse than any tweets or statements on social media which may of course fuel it. That it will not be found in toilets or in changing rooms but on the streets and public transport like the lesbians attacked on a bus in London www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49119947
And please can someone explain to me how keeping trans women out of toilets and changing rooms will stop this.
One of my sons said to me the other day that we are about to see a reprise of the 1980s with the violence then practiced by right wing extremists. It's something I really fear and it will not be just women who will be targeted.

I’m happy to change my mind about things, and often have over the years. I won’t change my mind just for the sake of it, though. I need to see a convincing argument first, and that hasn’t happened yet.

It's the homophobia implicit in this that most infuriates me. That's why I wont reprogramme my thinking. I have fought my whole life against homophobia I am not going to start saying that same sex attraction doesnt exist. Not for anyone.

PamelaJ1, that does seem the sensible option.

So there is to be no adjusting anyone's thinking? I would hope everyone was able to learn more and to adjust, if not necessarily completely change their views.
Any attacks by anyone on another person whatever their sexuality, gender or body form is wrong.
But while some women are focussing their fight for equality on the aggression and arguments found on twitter others are really trying to stop the backlash and change policies. The establishment, men in power like Trump and other leaders are the people we should be opposing. There may be a few transwomen who are a danger to women but most aren't . I've written about how to tackle on-line abuse,it's up to the individual what they do. But demonstrating and writing about the real restrictions women and LGBT people still face and maintaining that fight is more important.. www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/11/from-slurs-to-sexual-violence-women-human-rights-defenders-come-under-global-attack/

FarNorth,

Oh my goodness me. I think I’ll go back to bed and hide.

A couple of quotes from that article by Miranda Yardley :

I am a man who ‘lives as a woman,’ whatever that may mean, and can see exactly how too many transgender rights activists think.

any deviation from the brain-sucking mantra of ‘trans women are women,’ is met with reports to our employers, threats of physical violence, and threats of rape and death. This is a viciously toxic form of men’s sexual rights activism that has managed to rebrand and reframe itself as a civil rights movement.

Here is an article by Miranda Yardley, who is a transwoman and is opposed to the idea that transwomen are exactly the same as women.

The Cotton Ceiling, coined by a male “lesbian” pornographer, refers to the barrier trans women face when denied access to sex with lesbians.

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567823-girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women?fbclid=IwAR3xMzIXWYdHgmtDIaid0tCZQB-SNelvrZ4uBw5-mSfC0ppg2swxvhHBHGs

The attacks on lesbian women by trans women with penis, who accuse the lesbian women of transphobia, are simply outrageous.
It's the same old same old bullying of women, expectation that women will accommodate, 'understand', mediate and put their own needs to the bottom of the pile.
Adjust our thinking - I wonder why that expectation is directed at those who attack women.

Martina Navratilova ‘Adjusted her views after investigation’? It sounds like she’s been sent for reprogramming!

I actually read that quote as her saying she acknowledges the debate but still thinks the same as she did before.