jk rowling and the 3 dementors

Thanks babyshark I appreciated that comment.

If trans women are attracted to men, which I assume to be the case, what danger would they be to women in a so called ‘safe’ space
hollysteers, in fact many transwomen call themselves lesbians and insist that it is transphobic for actual lesbians not to want sexual relationships with them.
These are not men who respect women's boundaries.
These are men who are determined to push for what they want, regardless of anyone else.

Oh I think might win the prize. Hibo Wardere , also tweeting about the importance of the word woman and the massive importance of the reality of biological sex.

Ha no sorry to disappoint she hasn't adjusted her thinking (sinister phrase) she is tweeting vigorously in defence of GK Rowling and the realities of biological sex. She just understands there is a clash of rights.

Martina Navratilova has adjusted her views after investigation. I think she perfectly illustrates what can happen
In June 2019, the BBC broadcast "The Trans Women Athlete Dispute with Martina Navratilova", where she interviewed people including trans women athletes and sports researchers, presenting evidence on both sides of the debate of whether trans women have any advantage in elite sports. Her closing remarks were "The way I started this journey, I just wanted to see if there are any big surprises, any misconceptions that I had. And what I think I have come to realise, the biggest thing for me, is just that the level of difficulty that trans people go through cannot be underestimated. The fight for equality and recognition is just huge. That being said, still, for me, the most important thing in sports... and you have to remember, trans rights and elite sports are two different things, although of course they are connected. What's the right way to set rules so that everybody feels like they have a fighting chance? It feels to me that it is impossible to come to any real conclusions or write any meaningful rules until more research is done.

But for now, I think we need to include as many transgender athletes as possible within elite sports, while keeping it as level a playing field as possible. Look, society has changed so much. Things evolve, things change and maybe I need to evolve, I need to change. The rules certainly need to evolve. If you don't adapt, you've got problems. And so we'll just keep adapting and try to find a happy way forward

Actually it's unfair to call the cat calling one conservative, regressive maybe.

Jkr and Martina navratilova are not right wing. Caitlin Jenner on the other hand is or was a trump supporter.. I am.not sure what point this proves. Oh and India Willoughby thinks that hairy legs on a woman are dirty but fine for men. Is that a conservative attitude, probably. Paris Lees thinks it's a good think when women are catcalled in the street that sounds a bit conservative too. Can I dismiss their views that transwomen are women because they are fairly conservative in their outlook.

I think there’s a few twitter users on both/all sides of this debate who could take a leaf out of @trisher and @Galaxy ‘s book, actually all the posters on this thread, on how to conduct themselves whilst debating this issue.

No threats of violence or name calling in sight. It’s a shame that people detract from the core issues with their shocking behaviour.

Iam64 if you can quote me a left wing black woman who has made such statements I would be really interested to read what she said.
Many of the suffragettes became involved in the peace movement after WW1 and took up non violence and pacifism. They never advocated seperate women only spaces. I agree women in the 70s and 80s were militants and regarded men as the enemy. We thought that women would be safe from violence if we gave them safe spaces. And yet after 50 years of access to those spaces the violence remains and has become worse. It now targets anyone who is seen as different. I just don't understand how tinkering and fighting for those places will stop violence in society. You can't keep all women permanantly in a safe place. I suppose we could just let things go on and the violence escalate but I would like to think there is another way.

That's exactly what it is Iam64.

I have difficulty with the suggestion that women who express concern about the potential loss of hard fought for women only spaces, are right wing, white, privileged women. The same accusation could so easily be made about the suffragettes and more recently the women's liberation movement in the 1970's and 1980's.
I know two young women who have been villified, bullied and harassed by trans activists, because they expressed concerns at a women's conference. It feels to me like the same old - men attempting to tell women how to live their lives, men trying to claim any space women have managed to keep safe for themselves.

I think the hope for the future is our teachers, but I may be getting confused with another thread

Galaxy Thank you for that. I do think it is a learning process particularly for those of us who fought for equality and assumed when women were equal violence and abuse would stop. I was raised to be confrontational and argue so the whole idea of meeting anger with understanding was difficult. I do think there are a number of feminists active now who do believe in inclusivity and understanding but at the same time are scathing about abuse and violence. I think they are the hope for the future.

Trisher can I just say I absolutely appreciate that you continue to discuss this, I hope that doesnt sound arsey. I think it's clear we disagree with each other and will probably never agree, but often people declare no debate so I appreciate it.

Also the word woman is being used left right and centre in the thread about abortions. So I just want to clarify it is wrong for JKR to use the word women with regard to people who menstruate but it is ok to use the word women with regard to those who have abortions. It's not very coherent is it.

And actually believe it or not I think right wing women are deserving of rights too, as shocking as that might be.

So agree about people saying that the words female genital mutilation should not be used, that is a description of what has happened to these women, what is wrong with these words?

Well said Galaxy
If some people try and make this out to be a political right or left wing debate then they are sadly mistaken.
Women have fought long and hard for their rights ( in every way) and we cannot stand back and allow trans rights to eclipse that.

As I said JKR, navratilova, Simon fanshawe, none of these are right wing, but that doesnt suit the narrative does it. What hate speech are you referring to then? There was no hate speech in JKR s remarks. Why are transwomen allowed to use the words they want and women are not, why do you treat them differently. You ignore all the tricky issues. Encouraging everyone to respect peoples rights, but only some peopes rights, the right for sex segregated spaces is enshrined in law.
You would need to show me the hate speech that JKR used as I dont know which hate speech you are referring to. Is there also a problem with the word female in fgm because they are harassing women about that too. What word should we use there?

Galaxy where have I said woman is hate speech please? Those who wish to use the term and identify as women are entitled to do so.
Using those terms implies they are in some way separate, are they not all people? What is wrong with that word? But I do believe that you realise that JKR was wrong to just use the word woman.
Nor have I said hate speech is acceptable I said that by engaging in it we engage in agression and confrontation which is possibly the originator's aim., and I gave ways of not doing this.
How will imposing sex segregation help stop violence in the home? Providing young people with alternative methods of resolving conflict might help do that. Encouraging them to see everyone as having rights and respecting those rights might help.
The best way to help men to reduce violence and to protect women is to teach other ways of living.
Of course the less privileged are the people who suffer because of violence. But most of the women who are now shouting loudly about women only changing rooms and loos are not those women. They are right wing and as entrenched as some men. They sometimes have very conflicting unacceptable views. Germaine Greer for example who opposed the appointment of a transwoman at Newnham College but then said about he Harvey Weinstein women But if you spread your legs because he said 'be nice to me and I'll give you a job in a movie' then I'm afraid that's tantamount to consent, and it's too late now to start whingeing about that. which seems to me to be just about as divisive as you can get. And that is the object to divide society so that one group can have privilege and others can't.

Even if you have been raped and it would cause you untold distress ?
Some transwomen are attracted to men, many particularly it seems those who transition late in life are attracted to women. I suppose it depends how many attacks you think are acceptable. The most well known I suppose is the 4 women who were sexually assaulted by a man in a womans prison.
Sue as you are being offered reading material, JKR s piece on why she entered into this debate is exemplary. It is measured, empathetic, full of support for trans people, and has no death threats in it, although she details extensively the threats she has received. Her knowledge of the subject is extensive.

I’m keeping well away from Twitter, Look at the trouble it causes! Gransnet will do me fine.
Think of the three wise monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. Wise words there. I’m also thinking of the royal interviews, Diana etc.,causing nothing but trouble.
Live and let live I say as far as trans people are concerned.
If trans women are attracted to men, which I assume to be the case, what danger would they be to women in a so called ‘safe’ space and surely any sane trans would watch their step after suffering gender identity for so long? And as someone mentioned, how many attacks have there been in a ladies loo? There’s a lot of puritanism going on in this thread and if you are genuinely in need of medical treatment you should accept the help of a qualified professional whatever their gender.

I agree with Galaxy, we’ll never see eye to eye on this, Trisher. I think the things you say just don’t match the reality of life.

Pateoachy, even worse than the patriarchy.

It's pointless trisher we will never agree and we have been on this roundabout before. You think woman is a dirty word , I dont. No in fact you think it is hate speech. It's odd though dont you think, no one has changed the wording on the support offered to men with prostate cancer, just on the wording of us menstruators. They target the language of women, why could that be, could it be the patriarchy in action. If you have a look at the website of prostate cancer uk they use the word men all over the shop, is that hate speech? You say compromise but you offer none. I offered the solution of women, transmen and non binary people who menstruate, what is wrong with that compromise. Or is woman still hate speech.
I dont know where to start with the priveledged white women thing, those most at risk are those in prisons and refuges, some of the most vulnerable.
JKR - victim of domestic abuse, Navratilova discriminated against because of her sexuality but yes what privilege they hold compared to the men threatening to rape them.
The thing is you treat women and transwomen completely differently, one group is allowed to use any descriptor, in fact its hate speech not to, the other group are not allowed to use the word they want to describe themselves. You treat them so differently, almost as if you believe they are different.
Removing sex segregation is not going to stop women being hurt in the home is it. Letting women have boundaries and consent might just improve things. We are saying no and men just continue to ignore our boundaries, those who listen and value our consent are the ones helping to smash the pateoachy