university, debt and an abundance of graduates

Yup those would qualify as Micky Mouse degrees Chewbacca !!

David Beckham studies? Really?
Well I knew things were bad regarding daft subjects but honestly....

Three years spent ‘studying’ these, leave with a debt and wonder why employers aren’t clamouring to employ these ‘graduates’

Obviously though there are enough young people willing to waste their time and money on those to make running the degree viable.

I apologise for my last post using "write" instead of "right". I do not have a degree in English but I do know that was a mistake.

My degrees are in subjects which I have used in my career.

Who knows what sort of a career a degree in David Beckham studies might lead to?

Absolutely varian
Like I said employers will be falling over themselves to nab a Beckham graduate.

As an employer of over 26 years we have taken on young graduates and also those who have chosen not to go down the degree route . The degree students have a lot of paper qualifications but very little real work experience . They are not at all suited to working within and SME .

My DD did an English degree at a well renowned university . She works in a coffee shop chain .

Has she considered going into teaching. There’s a shortage of Secondary English teachers.

She has indeed Furret I have discussed this before on GN but she is a single parent with a 2 year old . A mortgage and the usual debts making it almost impossible .

There is a new salaried scheme called the Post a Graduate Apprenticeship

An employment-based route that allows you earn a salary while you train. Similar to School Direct (salaried) programmes, Postgraduate Teaching Apprenticeships are a new, nationally-recognised, work-based route into teaching. In addition to working towards Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) on successful completion of the course, apprentices will also complete an end point assessment (EPA) after the summer to consolidate learning from initial teacher training.

Furret

There is a new salaried scheme called the Post a Graduate Apprenticeship

An employment-based route that allows you earn a salary while you train. Similar to School Direct (salaried) programmes, Postgraduate Teaching Apprenticeships are a new, nationally-recognised, work-based route into teaching. In addition to working towards Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) on successful completion of the course, apprentices will also complete an end point assessment (EPA) after the summer to consolidate learning from initial teacher training.

This is how I trained at age 40. It was called something different then . We earned half a starter salary, had four terms based in a school combined with days at university doing the theory (Totally useless IMO) plus two full terms teaching practice. We were very well prepared I have to say. As I recall it was for shortage subjects,( science and languages). It was excellent so of course it was stopped ...... I was very lucky !!

This is current I believe.

Good!

trisher

Only 17% of students will pay off their loans completely. When they were introduced it was calculated that 30% would not be paid off and would therefore be paid by the tax payer. It's actually 83%. It has been calculated that actually leaving student grants would probably have been cheaper because it was a means-tested payment and many wouldn't qualify for support.
As for the arguments about numbers I remember when people used to say it wasn't worth children staying on into 6th form.

Also.....that no point in girls being educated at all as all they were going to do was get married and have babies.
And.......no point in trying to educate working classes (either gender), as they would get above themselves.
Similar arguements to not putting baths into working class homes as they would only use them to keep the coal in

I was not fortunate enough to have gone to Uni - my own fault - but all my children did so, and all are happily and well employed in good careers. My older g.children are just getting to this stage - first one goes in September. Yes, huge debts ( amazing that this legislation was put in place by those who got their Higher Education free!!!
My eldest child was fortunate in that he was in one of the last years that not only paid no fees, but he even got a grant. In the course of the last thirty years since he left Uni, he must gave paid that all back many times over through his tax, etc.

I can see we desperately need 1000s of new photography, film, creative arts and social science graduates every year !

Franbern I do think the student loan system, which has never worked as it was supposed to, is now about placating all those people who think getting a degree is a waste of time. It seems as if it's a way of making students pay when it really isn't.
Once upon a time science was viewed as a subject clever people didn't study (only the classics for intellectuals). Things change The old order changeth yielding place to new And God fulfills himself in many ways Lest one good custom should corrupt the world

Trisher, I agree about the loans system (a) never really working, and (b) placating those who see education as interchangeable with training.

Another point about it is that whilst in the past there were no tuition fees, students or their parents had to pay for rent, books and/or materials for the course, and crucially for many was the fact that the student was not contributing to the family coffers. In a lot of households it was expected that young people worked and paid 'board' towards family expenses, and having even one child out of several not doing that could make a real difference to the budget, particularly when there was also the cost of the student's rent etc to consider.

Much as I disagree with tuition fees, loans are a way of levelling the playing field, and allowing people who may not otherwise have been able to afford to go to University a chance.

Those who obsess over whether or not people with degrees get so-called 'graduate jobs' - what do you think it is about those jobs that make employers ask for a degree, if they could pay a school leaver less and get an equally useful employee?

When I first saw University Challenge I thought it strange the way so many introduced themselves by saying "I'm reading history" (or English or philosophy or whatever).

If all they are doing is reading, why do they need to go to university at all?

We need universities to teach science, medicine, engineering etc as these subjects involve working in labs and having practical interactive teaching, but could you not just learn about history or philosophy in your own time by reading, watching online material and joining chatrooms?

If the university experience is more about a right of passage, leaving home for the first time, making new friends etc, perhaps we should admit that and not pretend that it is the only way to learn.

You can read and join chatrooms, but it can't be the same as getting involved in research projects and having work graded by experts in the field.

I'm sure we have all seen some of the nonsense on the Internet, as there is no way of knowing who is posting and what their credentials may be. Look on something like Quora or Reddit to see what I mean .

There are many validated higher education online courses.

Ah, I understand now. You are talking about Distance Learning courses, such as offered by the OU and other Universities. There are lots of Distance Learning courses, but they are still degrees, so what's the difference? People are arguing that there is no point in getting a degree unless it leads directly to a job, in which case, why does it matter whether the degree is a Distance Learning one or a campus based one?

One of the many effects of Covid, of course, is that traditionally campus-based courses are now being taught online. It is possible that this might become the norm in the future - I think that at the very least it will expand as a way of teaching and learning.

I can see that it is cheaper for the student, but I wouldn't like to see cost being the main driver - reducing everything to monetary value rarely results in an increase in quality, in my experience.

For the record, my career was in Universities, and I have both studied and taught both Distance and campus-based courses. I am currently doing a bit of teaching on what was a campus-based course that has moved online because of Covid.

I absolutely support the idea that courses should be available online as well as on campus (particularly Postgraduate ones), but I don't think that they offer anything like the same experience, particularly for Undergraduates, who gain such a lot from the experience of living as a student.

but before student loans, apart from the tuition being covered, there were also maintenance grants for living expenses.
not very much, but enough if one was careful.
i don't remember any culture of drinking/clubbing, wasting money as an everyday event.
i used to spend hours on buses, long before bus lanes, because it was cheaper than trains.