That word, I mean non-word, womxn: how to say it

Academics track how 2nd wave feminists are at odds with 3rd wave, and 3rd wave feminists are at odds with 4th wave.

I think I'm more 3rd wave than 4th, but change is good. Got to keep moving forward.

I know imagine women disagreeing with each other, as if they were human beings.

I wish there was an eye roll emoji ? on here.

UrmstonGran Peroffspring, please ;-)

. I think that's it. Or as near as it gets.

GagaJo

No. It's feminism because historically, it was for women. Intersectional feminism opened the movement up beyond the white middle class female model it predominantly supported during 2nd wave feminism.

Ah, so the feminist equivalent of ‘all lives matter’?

Intersectional feminism, by definition, is about women - whether able-bodied or otherwise, working or middle class, whatever colour of skin etc. Women have not been wiped out of feminism. In any case, it is a theoretical concept which virtually never applies to real situations.

Doodledog actually feminism is about changing a Patriarchal culture that rules by dividing and discriminating against minorities, be these minorities black trans, gay, lesbian, queer or disabled. It includes changing male culture so that men can express what have been regarded as traditionally feminine emotions and are free to care, cry or otherwise behave in non-standard ways. It opposes hate speech whatever it is about and whoever is using it.
Exploring alternatives to the word "woman" is just a way of looking differently at the norms and standards traditionally assigned to people. It's intelectually interesting and challenges stereotypes. It's a pity some people take such a narrow and prejudiced view of things but there you are. Change worries some people.

Yet you use terms that reinforce stereotypes. Dress like a woman or live like a woman are as stereotypical as they get.
Thst women must look after everyone else is the very definition of the patriarchy.

trisher Sat 12-Sep-20 14:58:45
It's pronounced "wominks" and it is just the latest in feminism's attempts to lose the word woman or women because the word uses "man" and so some think diminishes women.

Oh wow! Got to love a minks. Do you know how a woman gets a mink? Same way as a mink gets a mink.

Baggs, easy peasy, I refuse to acknowledge it as a word - so won't be pronouncing it!

Beautiful explaination Trisher!

Scuse crap spelling

Galaxy have I used the terms dress or live like a woman? I agree some people do but then I suppose we all have ideas about that and your ideas might not be the same as mine. Patriachy certainly assigns roles to people and those roles always restrict freedoms. It isn't 'looking after' someone to stand beside them it is simply uniting on equal terms.
Spangler the old jokes are the best.

trisher

Doodledog actually feminism is about changing a Patriarchal culture that rules by dividing and discriminating against minorities, be these minorities black trans, gay, lesbian, queer or disabled. It includes changing male culture so that men can express what have been regarded as traditionally feminine emotions and are free to care, cry or otherwise behave in non-standard ways. It opposes hate speech whatever it is about and whoever is using it.
Exploring alternatives to the word "woman" is just a way of looking differently at the norms and standards traditionally assigned to people. It's intelectually interesting and challenges stereotypes. It's a pity some people take such a narrow and prejudiced view of things but there you are. Change worries some people.

I agree with all of that, but that is not the way it was presented at all - I was responding to the notion that feminism is no longer about women.

I don’t see people who object to women being marginalised (and nobody has addressed the fact that men’s identity is not diluted or questioned in any of this) as being narrow or prejudiced, but as you are talking about ‘some people’ maybe I am missing something. That’s always a problem with passive aggression.

You use them frequently trisher. The issue is this reinforces stereotypes not destroys them, its regressive not progressive.
It's not change it's the same old same old.

Galaxy if you can suggest alternatives I will try to use them, but really I don't see how this helps the discussion. Certain things have traditionally been thought of as being assigned to women. They are still thought of in that way- skirts and dresses for example. Now I've no objection to a man wearing them, but most people would say he was dressed "like a woman". I actually think as women we have more freedom than men in how we dress. No one says a woman in trousers is "dressed like a man" although I do remember my mum thinking women's trousers should have a zip at the side and men's a zip at the front.

There are no alternatives, clothes make up etc are nothing to do with being a woman. That's the problem.

Or a man for that matter. Anyone can present or dress how they like, that goes without saying, but it has no impact on your sex.

BlueBelle

What are you all talking about I haven’t a clue

I’m glad it’s not just me!

At the end of the day we are not defined by other people’s choice of words. We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be.

My Mum wasn’t a very happy person so my Dad did most of the caring and I grew up thinking that was normal. When we first married and both worked we both did the housework and cleaning and I was a bit surprised that his mother (and my stepmother) did not approve.

My brothers did their share in their homes as well though one sister in law was a bit uncomfortable initially.

My son has always been treated the same as his sisters and they were all expected to help at home with cooking, washing etc.

My daughters MIL’s (both only children) were a bit taken aback that their sons took on “women’s jobs” but both men seem happy though they don’t relish changing dirty nappies.

I am boring myself now but my point is that you have no control over other people’s words and I hate how people use words to categorize and bully others. Real equality comes from the home and what you experience there and from there, how you allow and expect others to treat you.

P.S. Did anyone explain how the term gaslighting came about and what it means?

Clothing traditions tend to adhere to gender norms, which, as you say Galaxy, is not related to sex. I understand that there are complexities at play, but in many cases I think that removing gender-based expectations would make lives easier for a lot of people- particularly young people who identify as gender-neutral.

It is, as trisher says, easier for a woman to wear clothes that have previously been considered ‘male’ than the other way round, but it doesn’t have to be that way.

Similarly, removing behavioural expectations based on gender and letting people choose to cross traditional gender boundaries whilst keeping to their own sex would be a lot less binary than clinging to old gender norms and expecting people to change sex to conform to them.

Regardless, I don’t see the need to expect women to make way for the relatively small number of men who want to change sex. We can still be women, and they can be honorary ones. The cynic in me can’t help feeling that if they want to be ‘real’ women they should learn to stop pushing for their needs to come first all the time - that seems a very patriarchal way to behave

Gaslighting comes from the film Gaslight.
An old movie about a husband trying to convince his wife she is losing her mind.
The movie was originally a book by the wonderful Patrick Hamilton written in 1938

Another good post there Doodledog.
"the cynic in me can't help feeling that if they want to be 'real' women they should learn to stop pushing fo their needs to come first all the time - that seems a very patriarchal way to behave "
Gave me my first smile of the day, for which I thank you.

I think that you are assigning roles to women ie that they are always passive, and yet there have been very demonstrative and outspoken women. The suffragettes for instance were very militant and that was 100 years ago. Now I could draw parrallels between those women and trans activists. They are the outspoken voices and actions which bring about change. So the idea that only men are militant is not only false it promotes an idea of women which many of us have always rejected. In fact one of the theories about including trans-women in the women's movement is that they will bring a return to active feminism, which seems to lost impetus in the 21st century. It isn't patriarchal to push for the needs of a minority. If you imagine that you not only misunderstand patriarchy you fail to understand minorities as well..

Do you mean an activism that involves threats of rape and violence, of threatening women with losing their jobs.