Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

But NiceasMice they are already there, if you mind or not is irrelevant. Unless you are proposing that all women be stopped and asked for their ID and who is going to do that?
Self Id changes very little apart from taking the strain, the indignity and the expense out of the process.

I am against any man using womens spaces astral. Whether they are bad or not. My sons and brothers are good men. I dont want them using womens spaces.

And I think men actually are also entitled to private spaces just for men.

Chewbacca

The fact remains trisher that cis women are expected to accept that they can have no safe space; all other groups are and were catered for. And it was deemed that, in asking for that space, that she was "transphobic". All other groups can expect a safe space but not women. Not so inclusive afterall.

The agreement was made before the meeting Chewbacca. Now if the whole group agreed that women were a maginalised group a seperate group would have been made but the accepted view was that as this was an anarchafeminist meeting, women were actually the main group and the organisers, so they did not require a seperate group. As my post said an anarchist meeting would have reached a different conclusion. So women can be represented in situations where they are a marginalised group. Gail Chester by the way could have argued this before the meeting, she chose not to. So it would seem her support for women only goes so far.

Galaxy so trans women are ok then?

I think transwomen are of the male sex astral.

Galaxy

I am sorry you didnt understand it trisher. I think quite a lot of people struggle with safeguarding.
Sorry chewbacca but I am just laughing at what you described. I mean its beyond words. We need special places for the men but not for women. Smashing the patriarchy there. This year in the uk one transwomen was murdered, three women are murdered a week.

I understand safeguarding Galaxy. I know how it works and what needs to be done. I don't understnd how using the term generally with no specifics is the answer to any problem and so your post is just jargon.
So in order to have themselves considered as vulnerable trans people have to be murdered????
The level of trans phobic crime is increasing and the attitude of many trans people that they would not tell and do not trust the police is so similar to the way women have felt about rape. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-54486122

I am against any man using womens spaces astral. Whether they are bad or not. My sons and brothers are good men. I dont want them using womens spaces.

Ditto.

Astral Galaxy so trans women are ok then? that's what this whole thread is discussing Astral!

I think when people are discussing which groups are the most marginalised and in need of protection it is useful to point out some statistics. I was talking about it in terms of the conference who decided women werent marginalised. I think it's a positive thing that the numbers are so low, every murder is appalling obviously. Violence against women is an epidemic at the moment.
Will try one more time. Single sex spaces are a layer of safeguarding. They arent 100% foolproof but we dont take away any layer of safeguarding because of that. Safeguarding of women is never improved by telling women that their consent is not important.

I don't understand how that isn't an issue of discrimination under the equality act. I don't understand how people have a problem with being told they are discriminating if that's technically what they are doing in the eyes of the law. Personal opinion about whether it's discrimination or not has no baring on the fact that it legally is. I don't know that I could reconsile that with myself and especially not with a trans person which is why I do not discriminate and accept my fellow humans.

Its probably a lot less stressful too.

You think stating biological reality is discrimination. What do you think happens when transpeople need healthcare? Many transwomen state they are of the male sex.
The equality act has exemptions in it for some single sex provision, is the equality act itself discriminatory.

Astral so many other posters have tried to explain why women need safe spaces, that are just for women, for example in changing rooms and toilets and if you haven't understood the reasons for that by now, it would seem unlikely that it can be grasped. Whilst you feel that trans women are being discriminated against because they are unwelcome in those safe spaces; cis women feel that they are being discriminated against because they are being told that they must share those spaces with a person who has a penis, testicles and male hormones. Whilst it is accepted that a woman can trans to male, and can access male changing rooms and toilets, there is, as yet, no data to show that any trans man has assaulted or attacked a man in those areas. There is data to show that trans women (males) have assaulted women and no matter how few those have been, one is too many. Why are we being told to take the risk? It really isn't difficult to understand.

I'm sure they would say they were born male Galaxy. Is that really the same thing?

You believe what you believe but 200,000 to 500,000 odd souls out there just in the UK, just living decent lives and loving their friends and family would be hurt, maybe even seriously to hear you say that.

Now you know that I understand the concerns of some of the women here and that I would like for everyone to feel safe and comfortable as ive said it many times despite assumptions otherwise. I just do include the trans community in that, the same way I did when people around me began coming out as gay 25 years ago when I was a young adult. I simply want people to feel happy and comfortable in their own bodies and I will continue to speak for that. Always. For everyone.

Chewbacca

I'm sorry but again I haven't said any of that so I don't need to address it.

No they would say they are of the male sex. Transwomen hold different points of view you know. Fionne orlander a transwomen has a brilliant Twitter feed, and is really interesting on this clash of rights. And posts some brilliant art and nature photos but that's by the by.

No one person can speak for all trans people Galaxy.

I am sure you would be horrified if I thought I could speak for all women. I've listened and spoken my feelings honestly and respected your honesty. We just don't agree on everything, that's okay.

I didnt say fionne spoke for all transwomen, I think many people would be furious at that idea. Yes absolutely it's ok not to agree and important to listen to those who we dont agree with. It's why I read the twitter feeds of both piers morgan and owen jones. Bloody stressful though

Astral, I do not understand your response to Chewbacca's post. You say "I'm sorry but again I haven't said any of that so I don't need to address it".

I'm not anti trans people. I do have some worries about the idea that a man with a penis who chooses to wear women's clothes, can be housed in a women's refuge. Women's refuges came about because of the work my generation of women did to raise funds to set them up. The refuge in my town was established in the 70's. Prior to that, we had no safe space for women and their children who were fleeing male violence. Many of those women and some of their children had suffered sexual violence from men, father figures.
Refuge places are vanishingly rare given 11 years of austerity leading to the absence of council funding for so many charities. Is it too much to expect transwomen to organise as so called cis women have for generations.

Will try one more time. Single sex spaces are a layer of safeguarding. They arent 100% foolproof but we dont take away any layer of safeguarding because of that. Safeguarding of women is never improved by telling women that their consent is not important.
Safeguarding requires that a set series of actions and precautions be put in place. Even if one of these is breeched safe guarding fails. But it is impossible to put any safeguarding precautions on public women's spaces. You can call them single sex, you can say they are women-only but that does not mean they are any such thing. They can be accessed by anyone of any gender. Trans women at different stages of transition use them now. They are not a threat. But there is nothing to stop a predatory violent man entering a women's toilet. Saying that they are safe spaces makes women actually less safe, because if you are using a public toilet you should be vigilant, and not imagine that the sign on the door somehow provides some sort of safeguard.

Saying that they are safe spaces makes women actually less safe, because if you are using a public toilet you should be vigilant, and no imagine that the sign on the door somehow provides some kind of safeguard

Seriously?!

Yes Iam64 because the other alternative is you tell women they are safe when they aren't. They are probably in less danger than say if they walked down a dark street after having too many drinks, but they are not safe.
I wish they were but my wishing will not make them so any more than stopping trans women self IDing will make them safe. It is you see one of the real holes in this argument that a women's toilet is somehow not open to any man because trans women aren't admitted. It's rubbish of course. If man plans to rape or violently attack a women he is unlikely to be bothered about breaking a law which says he can't enter a toilet.

Creating a culture where children are able to talk openly with the adults working with them is part of safeguarding. It's a layer of safeguarding. If you dont provide that culture it's possible that children wont be hurt. It's a terrible idea obviously but can you see that there isnt always a criteria that if one is breached safeguarding collapses. There are reasons why there are less sexual crimes in single sex spaces than in mixed sex spaces. They dont prevent all crimes but they prevent some, particularly the opportunistic ones. I also am really clear that valuing womens consent is part of keeping women safe.

Also there are women who have been raped and assaulted who would be deeply traumatised by the presence of men when they are naked and vulnerable. I think they are entitled not to be re traumatised.

No it isn't Iam64. But I havent said that people shouldn't have safe spaces at any point and I can't be expected to address that when I do not know what the solution is. I spent a year in a refuge myself.

I would certainly donate for a refuge for trans women. I am not sure they could realistically fund their own. Set up perhaps. What they cannot do is fund transgender bathrooms and changing rooms everywhere and unless someone does it, I'm not sure where we really expect them to... Go

So if trans women aren't comfortable or safe in men's bathrooms, and aren't welcome in women's then that is an unfair situation and they do not have equality.

When my daughter was little, my husband also faced bathroom issues out with her alone. She's autistic and was very unable to go in a woman's bathroom alone. He couldn't accompany her and he couldn't take her in the men's because of people using urinals. He would have to ask for the disabled key and sometimes he would be told no.

So having somewhere everyone is able to access is actually an issue that may affect more than trans people or women really isn't it.

I think someone already suggested seperate bathrooms with seperate wash facilities but I think that was shot down for some reason.

Again I'm not sure what answers I am expected to have when I'm not against people feeling safe in the first place