Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Sorry, I'm sure you are right

Astral Neither I, nor anyone else that I can see, has attempted to tell you what you think. This is a discussion and all thoughts and opinions are discussed in the same way; just as yours have.
Your use of the word narcissistic is interesting.

Chewbacca I haven't made any assertions, my mind isn't what it used to be but I am not narcissistic enough to think my thoughts carry weight over others or that they are anything more than just my thoughts and feelings. I am listening to everyone. I don't mind being told I am wrong but I do mind being told what I think.

I understand for some this is an emotional subject but there is no need for anger, I'm not in any position to enforce changes to anything.

It's happened a few times now and it's confusing and disconcerting.

I've only seen that posters are querying your posts and assertions which is surely what a discussion is about?

My curiosity keeps bring me back

There is a huge amount of data and information on the subject, that is easily accessed on www Astral, that should be able to satisfy your curiosity. In particular, the article that Dr Marcus Evans wrote for The Quilette is well worth a read for those who would like to learn more about this subject from the physicians perspective.

Chewbacca, once again that's a lot of questions based on no view point I have put forward..

Putting me on the spot I would say any decisions should not be taken lightly should they, from moving house to getting a tattoo. Sometimes mistakes are made no matter how much time and thought went in to it.

So I doubt there is a perfect process, all we can do is find a balanced approach and I think what my son said about the transitioning approach being slow in his experience is a workable way forward and what trisher said about acceptance probably being more important than physical changes is true too.

I really want to contribute to this thread but I don't have all the answers, some of you seem to expect me too or make assumptions because I accept trans people I must also want to put other women in unsafe positions. It's happened a few times now and it's confusing and disconcerting.

My curiosity keeps bring me back

Trisher you seem to be saying that because some people have had successful outcomes from gender reassignment treatment, it doesn’t matter that other people have had traumatic & life changing outcomes from which they will never recover.

Medicine isn’t like that. Outcomes are constantly monitored & audited & systems put in place in the hope that further disastrous outcomes will be avoided. Remember how many tonsillectomies were done in the 50’s? Ever wondered why few are done now?

The first principle of medicine is Primum Non Nocere - first do no harm.

Young people out there loving and accepting each other don't care what we think. A naieve post Astral, if you don't mind me saying so. How young do you think people should be when they're allowed to undertake radically life changing treatment? 13? 15? 18? At what age do you, or your son, think that "young people" have full cogniscence of what they're undertaking and the drugs and surgery that will entail? Dr Marcus Evans, Governor of the Tavistock Clinic recently wrote an article for The Quilette to explain why he resigned from his post there. This is just a small extract:

Those who advocate an unquestioning “affirmation”-based approach to trans-identified children often will claim that any delay or hesitation in assisting a child’s desired gender transition may cause irreparable psychological harm, and possibly even lead to suicide. They also typically will cite research purporting to prove that a child who transitions can expect higher levels of psychological health and life satisfaction. None of these claims align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.

When doctors always give patients what they want (or think they want), the fallout can be disastrous, as we have seen with the opioid crisis. And there is every possibility that the inappropriate medical treatment of children with gender dysphoria may follow a similar path. Practitioners understandably want to protect their patients from psychic pain. But quick fixes based only on self-reporting can have tragic long-term consequences. And already, a growing number of trans “desistors” (also known as detransitioners) are seeking accountability from the medical professionals who’d rubber-stamped their trans claims. And in 2019, when a formerly trans-identified British woman named Charlie Evans went public with her desistance, she was contacted by “hundreds” of other desistors, and formed a group called The Detransition Advocacy Network to give them a voice and support in a contentious environment that has been dominated by dogmatic trans ideology.

Generations to come will wonder what the hell we were thinking of to allow "young people" to disrupt and ruin their lives so catastrophically when they hadn't even finished developmentally and were below the age of legal accountability.

I asked, he said basically that it's probably easier now in some ways but not others.

Like their school has a strict uniform code that is completely different for boys and girls and it would be better if they were unisex with the option of skirts.

He said things like that force people to choose things relating to appearance in order to be seen as the gender they want to present as or feel more connected with. He also said that a lot of people are now choosing to be "gender fluid" in order to transition at their own pace or not fully transition at all which helps people experiment to find what matches their identity.

He said a lot I've already lost but those stood out.

It all seems like a sensible approach.

I wonder why people keep posting about Keira with such fervour. Did she receive the wrong treatment? Of course she did. Are there as many cases of people who didn't receive the treatment they needed? Of course there are. It's nonsense to keep focussing on one event or one person and think that there isn't a parallel and entirely different case that would show things from another perspective.
The point of Astral's post is that if someone is loved and accepted for who they are whatever gender they identify as, whatever their body appears to be, whatever other problems they might have, they are less likely to harm themselves in any way whatsoever. Young people as she says seem prepared to do that, thank goodness.

It's those ruddy 'societal norms' that really worry me.

Children being mutilated to conform to a completely artificial (and mostly man made) concept of how male and female should look and behave.

And on the question I asked about how can someone 'know' that they're 'in the wrong body' when they don't know what it's like to be male of female because they've never been whichever sex they think they should be, I had a bit of a google. It really does all seem to be based on 'feels'.

So, what happens if someone 'becomes' whichever sex it is that they feel they should be and that doesn't 'feel' right either?

(in the Guardian article I posted a link to, it says Keira has had a double mastectomy)

Perhaps that was because Keira was persuaded by others that a mastectomy was required in order to conform to societal norms.

Why should that be so?

Young people out there loving and accepting each other don't care what we think.
Keira was persuaded otherwise.

Astral but what does your son, and other young people, think about some young people feeling they have to take powerful drugs and/or submit to radical surgery (in the Guardian article I posted a link to, it says Keira has had a double mastectomy) I order to conform to societal expectations?

I asked my son about it this morning. He says there are a few transgender people in school, I asked why he'd never mentioned it, he said "no one cares mum, it's fine".

Here are older generations thinking we are setting the world to rights...

Young people out there loving and accepting each other don't care what we think.

The point is that transwomen have been using womens' facilities for years and there have rarely been any incidents. They were legally required to do so in order to change their gender. It's fine to focus on small details and question what "living as a woman" means but those are the words used. Suddenly because they have asked that this be changed and they be allowed to transition without having to jump through a series of hoops they become huge threats.
Chewbacca I have no doubt there are some celebrating this ruling. All I see is a situation where some teenagers may use other methods to source the treatment they feel they need. The internet presents huge opportunities for the desperate. I hope what happens is that 14& 15 year olds receive proper medical care and counselling but I fear some of them will regard the system as unable to fulfil their needs and will use other ways.
GrannyGravy13 I quite agree. But on one of these threads when I pointed out that women sometimes cause damage to other women using implements I was told that that was not legally rape and rape required a penis. So I created my solution. It's a simple concept. If all transwomen must suffer because some transwomen are agressive and dangerous then we should apply the same regulation across the board. So because some men are dangerous all men must suffer. (It's nonsense I know but sometimes only extremes prove how stupid a concept is)

Having taken the time and trouble to source the information 're Keira Bell, and then share it here so that others can see how complex and difficult this subject is, it's depressing and upsetting to know that it's been interpreted as celebrating by some.

Rape is unwanted penetration , not having a penis does not mean that you cannot rape someone. Various items could/are used to rape along with hands.

It seems that the Tavistock has instituted disciplinary proceedings against a staff member who raised concerns about procedures

“ Concerns about the rising number of children being seen at GIDS were raised by David Bell, staff governor at the Tavistock.
In a report, submitted to the trust’s board in 2018 and whose findings were first reported in the Observer, Bell said the service was failing to fully consider psychological and social factors in the backgrounds of young people wanting to transition.
According to his crowdfunding website, Bell is now “seeking legal advice regarding disciplinary proceedings which the Tavistock and Portman Trust has instituted against him in connection with his speaking and writing on the subject of gender dysphoria.” “

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/06/keira-bell-lawyer-warns-on-internet-coverage-of-transgender-issues?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Castrated men may be physically unable to commit rape but they will still be able to commit sexual violence. Violence and sexual violence towards women by men remains a significant issue in our society.

To suggest anyone is celebrating the outcome of Keira Bell's trans journey is deeply offensive.

While it is true that no one examines your genitals before you enter your chosen loo, social convention runs very deep. Most men and most women would not go into the opposite loo because of this. Yet the self identity of gender allows anyone to enter any loo. I'm not suggesting that every transwoman in a ladies loo is a threat, but there will be individuals who mean harm or mischief who will take advantage. A woman who confronts a biological male in the female space will be on shaky ground. How does the woman confronting a biological male in a woman's space identify the tortured soul in the wrong body or the voyeur/rapist/fetishist/paedophile who has seized the opportunity?

Thanks for explaining Lemsip I have never seen that musical.

*FarNorth I did say castrated men may be violent, but they wouldn't be able to commit rape so that would be sorted

Fantastic.
No problem then.

nobody ever checks your genitals as you enter do they? Therefore, facilities are only 'female' by name!

That has worked reasonably well, up to now, because everyone was aware of the convention of single-sex toilets.

If transwomen are scared of what might happen in men's toilets, why don't they campaign for separate ones for themselves or for all toilets to be single cubicles with a wash basin?

Prisons and hospital wards are places where personal information about the inmates is known - they can easily be single-sex but the NHS and prison authorities are choosing not to do that.

Astral

Smileless I thought that people had to at least live for 2 years as their prefered gender and be signed of by a psychologist to legally change gender. So yes it is a surprise to me because I hadn't seen anything saying they could do otherwise.

In that case, perhaps simply requiring official ID would solve most issues.

That is still the legal position Astral.

However it has been proposed that the simple filling of a form and a declaration should be all that is required.
In the meantime, organisations such as Mermaids, Stonewall, Scottish Trans Alliance have given 'Equality Training' to NHS, Police, Prison Services, Education authorities etc and have told them that the law says they must accept a person's chosen gender identity at all times, without any need for a GRC (which is untrue).
This has resulted in men being given beds in female hospital wards, and male prisoners being held in women's prisons.

It has also resulted in many schools converting their toilets to unisex or allowing pupils to use the toilets they want to, based on 'gender identity'.

Girl Guides now accept members and leaders who are trans (males) and many parents are completely unaware that their daughters may be sharing sleeping and washing facilities with adolescent boys, on Guide camps.

NanKate

I have just seen the introductory dance on Strictly. There were three transmen,or should I say transwomen so as not to offend anyone, taking centre stage for most of the dance. I think this will be the future.

Transwomen are men claiming to be women.
Transmen are women claiming to be men.

I'm offended if I'm expected to believe that those men are women.

I'm fine with it if they are just men in dresses.

Actually the suicide statistics have been completely debunked, as confirmed by the tavistock themselves, the interview this week on newsnight gives the details.Those who continually talk about suicide in this way, against samaritan guidelines should be ashamed.
We are not celebrating what happened to keira, we are devastated.