Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Galaxy

Your example demonstrates the importance of sex trisher.

Actually heart attack really doesn't. There is not enough evidence at the moment but there are two factors which are thought to greatly influence the survival rate for women. One is that the emergency services are not notified early enough because the public perception is that women don't have heart attacks, the other is that people are unwilling to perform CPR when they see breasts. Both of these would impact on transwomen, which is why they are entitled to express their opinions.

You are all entitled to your own views on feminism. I consider you all to be women I would no more discriminate against any of you than I would against any other person who stood for the same values I do. What I don't understand is how you can't appreciate that by proposing discrimination and victimisation you are in fact buying into the concepts of patriachy and the right wing. That you are opening the door to more discrimination where the faith you follow, the colour of your skin, your sexuality or even the way you dress may become the next thing to be unacceptable.

No the information on symptoms is interesting but the information on treatment and the type of treatment that women require is based on sex from what I can see, the impact on heart attacks on conditions such as endometriosis (sex related) is also important, it would be dangerous for transwomen to receive treatment without the doctor knowing their sex and I imagine knowing that they are trans would also be vital. Biological reality is important, the point of the thread.
As I have already pointed out ignoring biology results in discrimination against those who have a particular faith, and lesbians.

I have never said that transwomen are not entitled to express their opinion, my point was that those issues relate in many ways to sex. Pretending that they dont is harmful to everyone.

What has always deeply concerned me is that young people - early teens - often go through a stage of having a heavy 'crush' on someone older, of the same sex. This is an apparently normal phase, when the younger person is projecting a wish to be like the worshipped individual. In the hands of some of the clinics that have sprung up and are 'treating' some children of even primary school age, are they then advised that they are gay, or advised to change sex? Surely a young person with the confused feelings of puberty needs to be left in peace to grow into adulthood, as we all have, with the gradual understanding of ourselves and our bodies. Currently, expressing that opinion is likely to have someone 'cancelled', abused or threatened.

Galaxy I would imagine that most doctors would notice any treatment a transwoman had undergone immediately. Just as someone who has undergone a hysterectomy will be noticed. Medical treatment relies on doctors noticing many things. Basic first aid should not vary with gender.
The figures for CPR www.dbei.med.upenn.edu/research/studies/men-are-more-likely-women-receive-cpr-public-study-finds

Sorry trisher but that doesnt negate that issues relating to heart attack treatment are in many ways to do with sex. And actually there was a terrible case recently where the medical staff did not realise the sex of a transmen and the consequences were dreadful.

Honestly the world wont end if we note the importance in many instances of biological sex.

But nothing you have posted has proved that Galaxy you claimed doctors must know someone is a transwoman- well there will be evidence. You claimed sex matters in the emergency treatment of heart attacks, but actually it's having breasts and transwomen have them, so it's gender not sex.
No doubt there will be cases where something is missed and they are individual tragedies, but they are not indications that there should be segregation.
There are conditions which are more prevalent in black communities but no one is suggesting they are seperated from white people because of that. Awareness of differing medical needs is not a reason for segregation.

It is their sex though that decides treatment options as it is when a transmen is pregnant etc etc. The point of this thread was whether biological sex exists. We dont segregate by race we segregate by sex. Sex is the protected characteristic in the equality act and that allows segregation where there is need.

And actually thinking about it the emergency treatment is complicated as well because some transmen keep their breasts so it is therefore their sex which would impact on their initial emergency treatment.

So what you are arguing is that transmen must be treated the same as women if they retain their breasts but transwomen shouldn't be treated the same as women even if they have breasts?

No I am arguing that biological sex is a reality. I dont want people to be treated differently within emergency care or any care strangely enough.

One of the most important things to me is that those with gender dysphoria receive adequate care, I think there are a number of red flags at the minute which indicate that this isnt happening, I think the denial of biology is part of the inadequate care, I think gender expectstions are damaging to everyone, it's why I dont want to reinforce gender stereotypes.

Rosina - whilst I agree the crush scenario does happen, you are mixing up sexual orientation with gender identity in that example.
So who someone is attracted to shouldn’t IMO be confused with their own gender.
Gender is who they are and want to present to the world as, who they are attracted to has very little relevance to that.
I personally think that anyone who wants gender reassignment should be supported (at any age), but agree with you that the human body should be fully developed before any surgeries are carried out and should happen in conjunction with psychiatrists and psychologists to guide through the change.
Acceptance of a teen being attracted to or wanting to be like a celebrity in the case of someone wanting gender reassignment would then be uncovered by said professionals.

trisher, you said...
So what you are arguing is that transmen must be treated the same as women if they retain their breasts

In a medical emergency trans men are not biological men.

trisher again goes on to say...
but transwomen shouldn't be treated the same as women even if they have breasts?

In a medical emergency trans women are not biological women.

I would however expect the doctors and health care team to treat transgender people with the utmost respect. It is unkind to 'out' a transwoman where they are vulnerable.
Let's widen the bandwidth what it is to be a man. Let the men embrace the difference.

Lolo18 I agree - but is there enough in the way of counselling and discussion for either scenario? The person who was in the news last week - whose name I have entirely forgotten unfortunately - had very little before life changing medication and surgery. There is now no way back and much regret it seems.

NiceasMice

trisher, you said...
So what you are arguing is that transmen must be treated the same as women if they retain their breasts

In a medical emergency trans men are not biological men.

trisher again goes on to say...
but transwomen shouldn't be treated the same as women even if they have breasts?

In a medical emergency trans women are not biological women.

NiceasMice if you care to read the whole thread you would see that I began by discussing things raised at a women's meeting one of which was the survival rate of women after a heart attack (it is considerable lower than men),One of the reasons given for this is possibly the willingness of people to apply CPR to people with breasts. That impacts on anyone with breasts regardless of the gender they present.

Transmen want to be known as men NiceasMice

Yes trisher we all know trans men want to be known as men.

What is surprising is that you say CPR becomes an issue with breasts. I have to say I have never heard of that.
I guess breast implants on both males and females would present problems too.

"I wasn’t “born in the wrong body.” I was born female. But I didn’t like it. So I changed my appearance, at significant monetary, psychological, and physical cost, with plastic surgery and hormones. My sex never changed, though. Only my appearance changed."

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/?fbclid=IwAR0ihejOsMt_Oe9LhgH_oBff-EEIQ8dPCuyIpzJq-X9_DGEXgfINc-_KKX4

FarNorth; thanks for the link. It was very enlightening and also very sad. I think the point about a 'script' from social media explains a huge amount.
FWIW I reached puberty early and had large breasts at the age of 10. I recall being so embarrassed by them, and also upset that I had grown up so young, perhaps if that was now I might have thought that I wanted to get rid of them. And then what?
Social media can do a lot of good, but shouldn't be encouraging kids to mutilate their bodies.

Farnorth thanks for the link, I agree with Lois, very enlightening and sad - articles such as this should be widely read to bring balance and reality into the issues involved.

NiceasMice it was one of the focus points for an International Women's day meeting. CPR is routinely taught on dummies which have no breasts. There are now things available to try and rectify this. nurse.org/articles/womanikin-cpr-mannequin-for-women/
It is extraordinary that while there are so many issues people could be active about to improve the lives of women and others they choose instead to focus on a small number of transwomen activists and their own prejudices. It would be good if they could add their voices instead to the issues which are actually causing women harm now. Like the very real lack of funding for child care or even the CPR situation.

I do want to improve the lives of women trisher, which is why I don't want to compromise their safety and security by allowing people with a penis into areas where we're vulnerable. It's as simple as that.