Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Here's a comment from a contributor to the crowdfund :

"Women didn't fight for our voices to be heard only to be told male voices are women's voices, too. In the end, it's always about shouting us down."

FarNorth; that sums up my feelings precisely.

Ditto FarNorth and Lois

As the crowdfund link is at the bottom of the previous page, I'll put it here also.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/stop-scottish-government-redefining-woman/

This is an important challenge to the Scottish Government which has already created an Act which redefines the word 'woman' to mean anyone who says they are a woman, regardless of whether or not there has been a diagnosis or even change of any kind.

FarNorth

Here's a comment from a contributor to the crowdfund :

"Women didn't fight for our voices to be heard only to be told male voices are women's voices, too. In the end, it's always about shouting us down."

The word "woman" has never been some sort of feminist icon. It was in fact something feminists challenged in the 70s.
And just as the position of women has continued to evolve in many societies, so too has the word’s form and scope. The feminist spelling “womyn” (singular “womon”) – first appearing in print in 1975, and in the Oxford English Dictionary since 2006 – avoids defining women in reference to male norms and forms.
And “womxn”, originating in 1971 but gaining greater visibility in the early 2010s, demands greater fluidity and inclusiveness, encompassing trans women and non-binary people.
Whatever our views on alternative spellings, such ortho­graphic politics does contribute to broadening perceptions and challenging stereotypes for a more gender equal world

Challenging stereotypes, including the marginalised and fighting patriachy is what feminism is about not turning back the clock and blaming minorities.

I don't see that it is a stereotype to be biologically a woman.

But I may choose not to be called a woman. I may use the term womon or ask to be grouped with womxn. I may present as non-binary and use the pronoun "they". I may think my genitalia are none of your business.
That's challenging stereotypes. That's what feminism does.

Living like a woman - stereotype
Clothes and makeup being something to do with being a woman- stereotype
Toys and activities being anything to do with bring a woman - stereotype
Yes feminism is about challenging those stereotypes and we arent going to stop doing it.

"Women didn't fight for our voices to be heard only to be told male voices are women's voices, too. In the end, it's always about shouting us down."

Brilliantly put; thanks for sharing thatFarNorth

As longstanding supporters of Amnesty, my OH and I both think that they are wrong to even venture into this territory. It is well beyond their remit.

trisher
Feminists, and everyone else, have always been clear about what 'woman' means.
The use of 'womyn' and 'womon' were very limited.
No feminist ever suggested that men could be women.
Were you not paying attention in the 70s?
There were numerous women-only events and groups - every feminist knew who women were.

Call yourself a wombat for all I care - it doesn't stop you being an adult human female.

I’m confused now and hope someone can explain all this to me.
The feminist spelling “womyn” (singular “womon”) – first appearing in print in 1975, and in the Oxford English Dictionary since 2006 – avoids defining women in reference to male norms and forms
In what way is ‘woman’ defined in reference to male ‘norms and forms’ ?

And “womxn”, originating in 1971 but gaining greater visibility in the early 2010s, demands greater fluidity and inclusiveness, encompassing trans women and non-binary people

So if you don’t identify as trans or non-binary you can still call yourself a woman?
And can you call yourself a feminist if you don’t want to be called a womyn or a woman? Or does that make you a TERF?

Aah auto correct.
if you don’t want to be called a womyn or a woman?

Last word should be womxn

I am an adult human female=woman. And as far as I am concerned that is that, I will not have other people decide what to call me. Neither am I 'cis'; I am heterosexual. As for stereotypes I probably don't conform to lots of them, but I am happy with my biology.

I suppose ou are very lucky then Loislovesstewie because some people are not. It does not diminish my rights as a woman to say they need to be supported.
As for the post about women's groups, yes some of us belonged to them in the 70s and some of us still belong to them. And one of the things which doesn't happen at them is examining or questionng the appearance of any of the people who attend or demanding that they produce some sort of gender ID. We do discuss and act on issues which really matter such as period poverty, waspi women and heart attack awareness. All those attending act on and speak up about these things. They are feminists. I'm never sure about some of the people who post devisive and derogatory comments on here.

Heart attack awareness. You are being ironic arent you? Do you mean that heart attacks present in different ways dependent on sex (not gender).

Yes that was why we discussed it. We discussed CPR on people with breasts as well and wore bras on top of our clothes for a photo shoot. There may have been transwomen present but they didn't object or do anything but support the ideas being raised. Why would they? You really do have a negatve view of what happens in real life situations.

Actually just been reading some more and it also seems to be that certain conditions such as endometriosis raise the risk of heart attack for women, in addition to the usual factors that affect men. Also some of the treatment needs to be different between the sexes. And of course they appear to be treated with less haste for a range of reasons (now that might be because of gender, all the more reason to view gender as oppressive for women).

Your example demonstrates the importance of sex trisher.

It is absolutely vital for example that in this instance transwomen receive the correct care, I imagine oestrogen complicates things further, but doctors would need to know what sex people are.

trisher, The fact that some people aren't happy, a very small number of people, doesn't mean that the rest of us should have our lives changed too. I have said from the beginning that people can do what they want to their bodies, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with their choices or change my way of life and the freedoms that I have for them. I have given examples of why I would like safe spaces, I don't want to intimately examined by someone male and that includes one who retains male genitalia, I want staff in certain professions to be female for my own safety and peace of mind. When I was working some women wanted to be interviewed by a woman, would they have been happy by being interviewed by a transwoman? Probably not.
I don't wish to see anyone abused either verbally or physically but I think biology matters and as I have already said I don't want the baby to be thrown out with the bath water in the rush to be inclusive.

My experience of women's groups in the 1970's was that how women presented, what clothes they wore, weather they wore make up, hair styles, shoes etc mattered enormously. Of course, most women there would have denied they "cared" about clothes etc but there was a kind of uniform. No heels, no make up, very short hair cuts, flat red shoes, numerous ear rings and of course, dungarees. I loved the look.
One of the feminist groups I was involved with considered our work from a feminist perspective. One of the many things we identified as needing challenge , especially in psychiatric care, was the belief at the time, that if a depressed woman started using make up, that was a sign of recovery. What did that mean for those of us who never wore it?

trisher, I feel you're claiming feminism as something only you understand and support. That the many other contributors to this thread have their own experience dismissed because we dare to suggest that there is a risk that women's voices will be drowned out by the trans issue.

I'm a feminist. I like wearing high heeled shoes, makeup
and jewellery. I like my long, well manicured and painted nails. I cannot go without a bra because I find it uncomfortable.

I may not outwardly 'conform' to the stereotypical feminist of the 70's now, and didn't at the time but that doesn't make me any less of a feminist.

I agree with the last paragraph of your post Iam. You do appear to be suggesting tisher that those of us who have voiced our concerns about this issue are not feminists or less committed to the cause.

Well, I do have concerns and don't regard those concerns, or the way I physically present myself, as making me any less of a feminist than you or anyone else for that matter.

Exactly Smilesless.

I agree with the last two posts. That's all from me.