Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Indeed and just a few months ago Keira Bell would have been seen as a transman and defended and pronouns policed, now she is just collateral damage and they couldn't care less about what has happened to her. I am afraid I think most of those who should loudest about trans women are women couldn't care less about trans people.

Knowing very little about puberty blockers I did a little research. Apparently they have been used for a long time to treat children who have early onset puberty (as young as 6). The effects are reversible and when stopped puberty usually occurs naturally. They are seen by medical people as a way of giving children who believe they are trans gender a space to think and consider their development. www.gendergp.com/debunking-the-myths-surrounding-puberty-blockers-trans-kids/

No trisher they are not reversible that information is not correct, puberty blockers are not irreversible that information was removed from nhs website some time ago. It indeed used to state they were fully reversible in june they removed that and added information to detail the long term affects and the uncertainty around this issue. So I am afraid the nhs disagree with you. And the courts now. ¹

So are you suggesting that the children treated withpuberty blockers for precocious puberty are all damaged Galaxy They have after all been treated the longest Puberty blockers have been used for more than three decades to treat precocious puberty. They are generally considered to be both safe and effective. Research suggests that young people who have been on puberty blockers have normal reproductive function after they stop taking them


Galaxy, you have raised an interesting point there. The noise and threat is coming from the transwomen(men). Transmen barely ripple the surface.
Where I could name a dozen transwomen easily and quickly, I would struggle to name one transman. The trans ideology seems to have a deeply misogynistic core.

I watched a clip about Eddie Izzard recently. Once charming, intelligent and funny, he now claims that he is female and a lesbian. Really? We once watched the Black and White Minstrels and white actors blacked up to play black parts until we all realised this was not acceptable. Yet we look on the likes of Eddie in an alice band and a slash of lipstick and the group think is that he is a brave and stunning woman. Yet this man is appropriating womanhood, and expecting that we agree with his delusion. I'm still with JKR.

Here's a transman petunia news.sky.com/story/trans-man-who-gave-birth-loses-latest-appeal-to-be-known-as-his-childs-father-11980642
There are quite a few of them about and also non-binary people who may look like either gender.

Trisher, takes deep breath , I admire your commitment to this issue, I dont agree with you but you argue fairly and without threats, which is always refreshing on this subject. I believe you genuinely care about transmen and transwomen, but does what is happening not worry you. There are numerous upcoming court cases relating to the tavistock, it appears they are demonstrating lack of follow up and little analysis of data, as I understand it their safeguarding lead is taking them to court. In keira bells case the judge used the word surprising for their lack of information on how many of those who were receiving treatment were autistic, many with more understanding of the judiciary than I do said this is judicial speak for what the hell are you playing at. I want transpeole to receive the best care, I am deeply worried this is not what is happening. We will all be culpable if we have got this wrong.

Im also with Galaxy

I think the best way anyone is served Galaxy whatever their sexual orientation, gender or any other factor which might be used to divide them from other human beings is by considering them as equals, not making up or distorting information to suit a particular point of view and being open to the fact that people behave in all sorts of ways, and that if they do so without harming others that is perfectly OK.
I fully understand that there may be issues with transgender people that we fail to appreciate or understand yet. What I do not understand, appreciate or accept is that any one should be made to suffer in any way because of the prejudices and preconceptions which exist in society, or because some individuals may exhibit violent or unacceptable behaviour. As an analogy, it would be like me losing faith in the ability of women to empathise and deal better with other human beings because of the actions of Margaret Thatcher. No one section of society is defined by those individuals within it who choose to behave badly and the trans community deserve the same acknowledgement.

That's crackers! If a person has a womb & boobs it's female, if the person has meat and two veg, it's male. Simples!!

As regards the Tavistock it is a research clinic it may get things wrong. But unfortunate as that may be and incredibly difficult for those individuals, it doesn't negate the fact that on the whole they provide treatment for many and some who would not be alive today without their help.
You never answered my question about precocious puberty and blockers by the way.

I see them as equals it's why I want them to have adequate medical care. If the safeguarding lead of any group was raising concerns I would be very worried.

Trisher as an aside, early puberty is a different clinical condition from gender dysphoria.
Using particular drugs successfully to treat one condition doesn’t necessarily justify their use, or mean that they are safe, to treat another.

Because it's a completely different use of blockers. Look at the nhs website on the subject.
I hope I am wrong trisher, I really do but it's not looking that way.

Galaxy

I see them as equals it's why I want them to have adequate medical care. If the safeguarding lead of any group was raising concerns I would be very worried.

Then acknowledge that transwomen want to be known as women. That is their first request. By refusing to do so you cause them harm. You may believ you don't but then white people once used terms that caused harm to the black community and thought it was OK.

Telling Keira bell she could change sex did her irreparable harm. I wont participate in that kind of harm I am sorry.
As an aside I think people obviously should be able to present in any way they want to.

I spent 10 years volunteering at an HIV/aids charity in the 90s. We all sang the same song that everyone was at the same risk from the virus. That it didnt discriminate. And woebetide anyone who disagreed with us, you must sing this song too. That was a lie and in my view treated gay men in particular with an utter lack of disregard for what was happening to their community, for their grief and trauma actually. Am not doing that again to people trisher.

There is a difference between puberty blockers- given before a child is 16 and cross sex hormones- given after 16.
The first have been used a long time. The second cause infertility
From the age of 16, teenagers who've been on hormone blockers for at least 12 months may be given cross-sex hormones, also known as gender-affirming hormones.
^These hormones cause some irreversible changes, such as:
breast development (caused by taking oestrogen) breaking or deepening of the voice (caused by taking testosterone)^
Long-term cross-sex hormone treatment may cause temporary or even permanent infertility.
It must be incredibly difficult if you have a child who requires this treatment and who it seems needs it. Because in some cases the result of not being treated might be accessing unlicensed drug treatments, self harm or even suicide. I still don't see how condemning anyone trying to deal with this issue helps.

I am not condemning them, unless you think raising safeguarding concerns is condemning them. I work with children with autism have done all my life, do you know how many times we as a society have got things wrong for these children. One of the parents of the children you are talking about is the next court case against the tavistock. I cant begin to imagine the trauma the parents and child are going through. We need to get this right.

Women seeking sterilisation are often asked to wait several months to avoid making irreversible decisions.

Or years, more likely.

I personally know someone who maintained from the age of 18 that she wanted to be sterilised - absolutely not until you are over 30, she was told.
Even once she was over 30, doctors still tried to insist on contraception use because she had no children and may decide she wants them, in future.
Luckily! this woman had already had a bad experience with the coil the doctor wanted her to have, which he could see in her notes.
In addition, she is very articulate and was able to explain clearly her absolute horror of having a small dependant human in her life.

I personally know someone else who wanted to be sterilised immediately after she had her 5th child.
Doctors made her wait until she had counselling to make sure she knew what she was doing.
While waiting for the appointment, her 6th child was conceived.
Luckily! permission for sterilisation was then kindly given.

Doctors seem keen to police adult women's decisions on sterilisation.
But distressed teenagers and even younger children? They can make informed decisions about sterilisation all right.

When people (men and some women) were telling women what their place in society was, women went and got their rights changed in law. That meant their rights were legally protected and enforceable.

Trans people are doing the same because it is the only way they can get their rights protected because members of the public refuse to do so. So there is the cause of most issues. The more people who refuse to accept trans people the harder they have to fight for their rights to simply be who they are.

How does anyone think they have the right to tell people who they are? There is no law protecting that but that seems to be what people want. The right to force their opinion on others to the detriment of their mental health.

We should all be protecting other people and finding a way to help them feel welcome and accepted in society unless they are breaking the law and without infringing on others rights.

If we aren't looking for solutions then it's prejudice and that is why companies and organisations do not want to come down on the side of prejudice, because public opinion is slowly growing against any kind of discrimination.

They don't seem to want to sterilise women now. I was booked in to be sterilised but then managed to get pregnant. Afterwards they didn't want to do it. My husband was booked in and sterilised within a month of asking. The feeling seems to be that it's the safer option surgery wise.

How does anyone think they have the right to tell people who they are?

That is what Amnesty International is doing when they state:
There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’

We should all be protecting other people and finding a way to help them feel welcome and accepted in society unless they are breaking the law and without infringing on others rights.

I agree but not to the detriment of others.

trisher
But factor into your views that women have been actively involved in marathon running for less than 60 years

How does that affect an individual's running ability?
Someone who has taken up running marathons, in recent years, is unaffected by whether women have been doing this for 60 years or 600 years.
Their own physical ability is the same and is affected by whether they are female or male.

I don't think anyone could truly understand what it is like to be born with the wrong genitals without walking in the shoes of the person who has to live with it.

So for me that is why I listen to the stories of transgender people and empathise with their pain.

I am very thankful that when women were being discriminated against on the grounds of having different genitals that society listened and made space for their rights. A fight that is still ongoing but has made huge steps in the right direction for women to be defined by what is on the inside and their minds, not what is on the outside.

Still a long way to go though.