Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

* Then acknowledge that transwomen want to be known as women.*

I can acknowledge that transwomen want to be known as women but I don’t have to believe that they are women. Especially not when transwomen want to assume the mantle of ‘woman’ for themselves, leaving natal women as mere ciswomen.

Or even non-men as the Green Party would have us be.

Who we are is on the inside not the outside.

Yet the same patterns have emerged over and over for years.

People judged by what is on the outside, whether that is their skin, their physical characteristics, their weight, how attractive they are or their genitals.

The same problem with different names.

As long as people are not breaking the law or infringing others rights then the important thing is their mind and their personality. That's what has value.

'Be Kind' - that's the message we get.

How about men Be Kind to women by not attacking, raping, murdering them?
In that kind society, it would be easier to accept that transwomen (men) are women because they could be seen to pose no danger.
In our present society, men do pose danger to women and children and it's unreasonable to expect us to accept that any man at all should be regarded as a woman because he says so.

Self-identification of sex is not law, in the UK, but increasingly organisations are acting as if it is.

trisher how would you tell whether a transwoman is a genuine tortured soul or a man who has ill intent towards women or children?

Astral

I don't think anyone could truly understand what it is like to be born with the wrong genitals without walking in the shoes of the person who has to live with it.

So for me that is why I listen to the stories of transgender people and empathise with their pain.

I am very thankful that when women were being discriminated against on the grounds of having different genitals that society listened and made space for their rights. A fight that is still ongoing but has made huge steps in the right direction for women to be defined by what is on the inside and their minds, not what is on the outside.

Still a long way to go though.

There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’

I don't think anyone could truly understand what it is like to be born with the wrong genitals

Your statement of being born with the wrong genitals would seem to be proof to me that Amnesty International's statement is wrong.
Someone can be biologically male or female and know that they are the opposite gender.

Amnesty International are confusing biological sex with gender.

Actually, I think it's just men telling women what to do, as per usual, in other words a man decides he is now a woman, s/he decides that biological women have to accept that or else. All my life I have been told, by men, that I don't know what I am talking about because I am female, and quite frankly I am fed up to the back teeth with that. I am with J.K Rowling; you can dress how you want, love or have sex with another consenting adult of either sex /gender, but don't infringe on my rights as an adult female i.e. woman.

As long as people are not breaking the law or infringing others rights then the important thing is their mind and their personality. That's what has value.

That's the whole crux of the matter though isn't it Astral? The majority of us have no problem with how anyone dresses, walks, talks or identifies themselves; their choice. The problem is caused when the vulnerable amongst us, usually women and children, are put at physical risk by a man who chooses to identify as a woman and so is able to access their safe spaces. So whilst we're "defending the rights" of those who choose to identify as women, how are you going to protect the rights of those who are women?

Genitals are just skin. Is a person biologically different because they have 6 fingers?

By the way, why was the Gender Recognition Act not called the Sex Recognition Act?
It is about changing the sex designation on birth certificates so that should be in the name, one would think.

Because trans campaigners wanted the word 'Gender' to be used although they didn't make clear to legislators that they wanted it specifically to bring about the confusion we now see.

(To head off anyone saying that 'gender' was used to be more polite, that's not true.
There was no problem with naming the earlier Sex Discrimination Act.)

genitals are just skin
Talk about attempts to simplify complex problems.

Astral you posted earlier about sterilisation for females and males.
What were you talking about if there is no such thing as a biologically female or male body?

Chewbacca those are the solutions we should be working towards rather than telling people who they are. We will find them. We just have to work with everyone to do so.

I think anyway. I just value people for who they are. Whilst respecting their outward identity, journey and roots too.

I don't want to see any good people suffer for the behaviour of the awful few, whatever the situation.

Chewbacca

^As long as people are not breaking the law or infringing others rights then the important thing^ is their mind and their personality. That's what has value.

That's the whole crux of the matter though isn't it Astral? The majority of us have no problem with how anyone dresses, walks, talks or identifies themselves; their choice. The problem is caused when the vulnerable amongst us, usually women and children, are put at physical risk by a man who chooses to identify as a woman and so is able to access their safe spaces. So whilst we're "defending the rights" of those who choose to identify as women, how are you going to protect the rights of those who are women?

I agree wholeheartedly, Chewbacca and most certainly have no wish, either for myself, or anyone else, to be put at risk by a man, ‘identifying’ as a woman. I happen not to believe that they really do identify. They are just men taking advantage. No person who really does identify as a woman would want to hurt another woman, particularly by sexually assaulting her.

Here, it seems to me, is the problem. The majority of trans people lead ordinary lives and are no risk whatever to others and that is how it should be. Those who take advantage of the situation make it difficult for them.

The situation is sport is a different matter and one about which I do not know enough to comment

Biology is very complex and I don't have any answers, I can only listen to the research and the evidence that exists that says people are not happy in the gender they were assigned at birth.

This is a subject I have learned more about during my lifetimefrom not k owing this problem existed, I'm not going to get it right all the time. I'm going to make mistakes and call someone the wrong pronouns. I am trying to respect everyone and that's all I can do. Younger generations have a better handle on it.

Astral

Genitals are just skin. Is a person biologically different because they have 6 fingers?

They are rather more than that.

My cousin had six fingers, easily remedied when she was tiny and hardly a comparison.

Honestly a rapist will take advantage of any situation to gain access to a victim. There are female sexual predators and abusers though which is a situation that must be remembered.

My hope is that one day there will be screening tests for sexual predators.

Everyone should be safe everywhere. It's sad that we need safes spaces at all. While we do, they must remain so.

I think I'm all out of anything more to say.

We just need to listen to each other and find solutions that alleviate concerns while accepting people for who they are and stamping out things like discrimination and predatory behaviour.

I'm certainly not the right person with the right knowledge to argue intelligently for that. I'm just basing it on feelings. My feelings being that it is possible with time.

FarNorth

trisher
But factor into your views that women have been actively involved in marathon running for less than 60 years

How does that affect an individual's running ability?
Someone who has taken up running marathons, in recent years, is unaffected by whether women have been doing this for 60 years or 600 years.
Their own physical ability is the same and is affected by whether they are female or male.

So do you not think FarNorth that centuries of women being regarded as physically less able, of being restricted to certain activities, of being chosen by men to bear children because they fitted a certain norm may not have affected their development? That the warrior women of previous societies have effectively been bred almost out of existence? But perhaps some element of those genes still exist and women can and will become better at certain things, things they have in the past been excluded from? Even if you don't think that then surely the training necessary to run long distances can only have been really applied to women for comparatively fewer years and both this and their own expectations must produce better runners. Physical ability is not fixed I think the 4 minute mile proved that in the 1950s.

It's sad that we need safes spaces at all. While we do, they must remain so.

You're right, there.
But they aren't remaining safe - including women's prisons where men are identifying in and the women have no choice about it.

Astral you are a well-meaning person who is being confused by those who wish to over-rule women's rights while disguising that this is what they are doing.
There are a lot of people like you, which is why we're in the mess that we are.

Btw 99% of perpetrators of sexual crimes are males.
That's an important statistic.

You may have a point about that trisher.
It'd take quite a long time to even things up, though, so women should not have to compete against men in the meantime.

Transwomen, by definition, belong to the sex class that has been encouraged for all those centuries so they should be competing against men.

Btw, how did everyone know who was to be an oppressor and who was to be oppressed?
Was it assigned to them at birth?
Was there any observation of biological sex involved in that?

What on earth are you talking about what do you think would have happened to the warrior women if they had been in a physical confrontation with a warrior man, who do you think would have come off worse. It is why world rugby are saying no to this because of the physical risk to women.

I don't think it's right to put ourselves in a position of "I'm right and you are wrong" FarNorth because that's still relatively unknown at this point. Which is why I don't want to risk upsetting or alienating anyone for their views.

Thank you for doing so as politely as possible though. I do understand your concerns if not your stance.

Its violent sexual crimes I think farnorth. I just am aware we need to be as accurate as possible. Thankyou so much for your contributions, it's so important we talk about this.

Galaxy the Ancient Greeks depicted Amazon women as terrifying. They were feared as fighters to the death. For a long time this was regarded as a sort of Greek fantasy but more and more evidence is emerging of warrior women who fought alongside men and of societies where women were the warriors and ruled their own places. Just because women after thousands of years of being the property of men and oppressed by them are weak it doesn't mean they have always been or will always be.

Do you understand how dangerous what you are saying is. All those women attacked murdered, raped by men they just werent strong enough to fight them off were they. If I had to pick in terms of being attacked by a man or a woman I would chose a woman every time because there is an outside chance I would survive. I would stand no chance against a man.