Rather pay than give in

This is not about our freedom, it’s about what we can send to the EU.
Or are you saying we should have the freedom to send whatever we want

Goodness, this thread has moved quickly since I posted, and thanks for the comments.

Perhaps I can get some dispensation to stay in France for longer, but I don't actually want to go for longer. Quite apart from Covid, I have very recently lost my husband and want to be near my family. That's really not what it's about. It's the fact that I need to ask permission to do something that I would otherwise have been free to do.

I may still be a European, but I will not be a European citizen anymore, as I was before. And that upsets me greatly, viscerally, that I have been stripped of that citizenship, dispossessed of something precious to me. And I am someone who remembers the pre-EU days, blue passports etc, yet I feel so deeply about this. So imagine how our children must feel, who were born as citizens of the EU and it has just been snatched away, even though the majority of young people wanted to remain.

We have let the younger generation down in this, as in so many other ways, especially with regard to education. So many take out vast loans at exploitative interest rates, in order to obtain a degree - often with poor quality teaching - and limited job prospects. And who will be paying for Covid in the long run? Not the people on this site, but the young people who can't get jobs, afford houses, pay for eand now have to lose their European citizenship, on top of everything else.

But it is not just an emotional reaction. Truly, logically, I cannot think of one good reason to leave. Economically, we will be worse off - why would we want to trade with Japan and Australia at the expense of our nearest neighbours, even without regard to the carbon footprint.

And, as a former lawyer, I genuinely don't understand this fixation on the European Court - it is simply an extra layer of protection, a last right of appeal, but the amount of cases that actually go there is absolutely minuscule. And this from a PM who tried to prorogue parliament and was outraged when the Supreme Court held that this was unlawful - presumably the government could have appealed to the European Court. you couldn't make it up really, a complete and utter farce.

It's of interest what memes have taken root in people's minds.

Meme as posted by the original poster:
"Personally I would rather UK left EU without a deal than give up our freedom."

This meme is a famous example of non sequitur : the one does not follow from the other.

biba70
From a young friend today- whose daughter was planning to go and study in Italy with Erasmus and won't be able to

So the Daily Express virtually has us declaring war on France this morning. Which is arguably not unusual for the Daily Express but somewhat more unusual, irresponsible and pathetic for an actual U.K. government.
I’d like to say I don’t think I could be more ashamed of this country than I am at the moment, but I don’t doubt Johnson and the Tories will give me even more reason to be so

I’m not terribly interested in your “young friend” and do not read the Daily Express, but this might reassure her

From the BBC website -regarding Erasmus

A Department for Education spokesperson told Reality Check: "The government remains open to participation in elements of Erasmus+ on a time-limited basis, provided that the terms are in line with UK interests and we can agree a fair and proportionate financial contribution."

UK universities are still eligible to participate in Erasmus programmes and as long as funding is awarded before the end of 2020 students and staff will be able to go ahead with their exchanges even if they take place after the end of the transition period.

I take if you haven't had much to do with social services if you think they're standing by ready to help.

Why would the EU change the 90 day limit just for the UK? Which bit of English (let's face it, it's usually English) exceptionalism and entitlement even makes people think they 'should' do that?

Biba70
What are Social Services in the UK here for ???????????.
If YOU or any PERSON know of elderly persons who are suffering in any way then it is up to each and every one of us and our duty to advise social services. No one should be left to do it themselves. Waste no more time GET this person help.

There won’t be any French fishing boats working they will all be blockading Calais, the French navy will protect their boats of course and we will see who blinks first then.

This could get really nasty if there is no fishing deal, trade deal not so much we will just pay the tariffs and fill in the extra paperwork

Oh yes, we know all about the dirty tactics of French farmers
biba ....even their own governments could never control them and rolled over the minute they hit the barricades.
Nobody controls the press, either here or in France.

You might not give a fig lemon (wonder what that tastes like) ... but do you think that would help goodwill between the countries, frictionless flow of imports and exports, fair treatment of UK residents in France, and so on.

Or would it inflamme the situation even more. You should see the cartoons today and the headlines, about Johnson and fish wars. Piling on, quite rightly, the ridicule on Johnson, and sadly, all who sail in him or his ships. Calais and ports are going to be massively problematic anyway in 3 weeks time- but enrage the French farmers and fishermen- and it will turn dirty. They pick up the copy of the gutter Press, which is reproduced in the French Press- why oh why do we give them that ammunition- in such crucial times as this? Sheer, bloody madness.

Signing off for a bit. Basta.

biba70

Indeed Nezumi, Schengen rules are written in stone.

Mount Sinai?

Rules/laws can be changed.Perhaps that’s the real flaw about the EU, it’s so large and unwieldy that any law can take years to change.
In any case, for anyone with a second home in a EU country
All it takes is a few pounds and a bit of bureaucratic red tape to get round, as Pantglas has already found.

I am one, no doubt of many, who had a no complaints life before EU. We did not starve, medicines were always available and listening to the doom and gloomers amongst us one could believe life did not exist more before the EU. Travel was not a problem in fact my most carefree no problem holidays were before EU. If you survived the after math of WW11 then leaving the EU? will be a 'piece of cake'.

Indeed Nezumi, Schengen rules are written in stone.

lemon, have you seen how EU nationals are currently being treated in the UK? Perhaps not. It is just appalling. After months of paperwork and red tape, even if they get approval to stay, they get absolutely no written confirmation of this, NONE whatsoever. Knowing what happened with Windrush- how can their trust their status can be proven if necessary.

You have no idea the stress and heartache this is causing- especially to elderly people, like my great friend. She has not computer, no i-phone and has had to get volunteers to help her, again and again, with the application. She is very frail, handicapped, with many health problems. She has had confirmation she can stay, but absolutely nothing to prove it. No document or certificate, NOTHING.

UK people in France are getting all their official documents, properly registered with copies and total, unequivocal evidence and documentation. Fair, did you say?

But the UK isn't being generous to the EU vs the EU being a big meany to the UK. That's the point I am making.

When we no longer belong to the EU then our existing rules for 3rd countries come into play.

The UK allows people to come here for 180 days
The Schengen area (so most of the EU) allows 90 days.

It's not about generosity or otherwise. These are existing rules that were drawn up when Brexit was only interesting to the headbanging right wing of the Tory Party. They are nothing to do with Brexit. Suggesting it's anything to do with the EU being unfair to the UK is just populist nonsense feeding into the gunboats 'to guard our fish' and 'shove your cake' narratives on display across the press this morning.

If it came to French fishermen flouting the law in UK coastal waters then we would have to patrol those waters...
I suspect it’s the newspapers doing some stirring as they always do, but it’s the simple truth ( if it came to it) and I suspect it won’t.
I don’t give a fig what the French press would do if accessing GN biba ?

The French Press would have a field day if they had access to GN. Mind you- they could have- it is a public Forum for all to see.

Do you really thing Lemon- when Johnson is threatening actions with Army ships against the French- that that will encourage good will, really? Even if the French politicians show willingness to bend over backwards (and I don't think they will) how do you think the popular Press in France is dealing with such threats of Fish Wars and Navy Ships?

They don't have to go to war- they can just blockade- and in view of the geography- it will be VERY VERY easy- just passive blocking of ports and Mways- simple.

lemongrove

Nezumi65

lemongrove -the 90 days is NOT how the EU is responding to this situation. 90 days limit for non EU members in the Schengen region has been around for years. We won't be an EU member so we have to abide by non-EU member existing rules. It's not an EU 'response' at all.

And the UK 180 days is not a UK response either. It is what is currently in place (being outside Schengen we could set a different limit).

I think if people are going to accuse the EU of bullying the poor old UK it's important to understand what is a response (so could reasonably be argued to be bullying) and what is a current arrangement for those not in the EU.

I didn’t accuse the EU of bullying......
If they wanted to, they could ( under the circs) be as generous as the UK and make it 180 days.
Their laws are not written on holy tablets of stone.

British exceptionalism at its best - why oh why should they make an exception for the UK? Who has chosen to leave the 'Club' and make themselves 3rd country citizens.

We had a friend who was a member of the Golf Club but decided he didnt' want to pay full membership. He asked for his Membership toe be reduced. He was offered Off Peak membership, or social membership, at reduced price. But he wanted to play any time he wanted, peak time or not...

Guess?

Now Parky, you said you would rather 'pay' - but would you go to 'war'?

Would you pay by not having life saving medicines, for you, your children or grandchildren, Isotopes for cancer treatment? You could decide that choice of foods is not important- and I'd get that, sort of. Where do you stop?

Pasted same link twice, One should be en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_myths

Could also be months mistaken for years? Do you get a more "normal" number if you divide by 12?

I don't know where their longevity (or reports of it, at least) came from, Calllistemon We can only guess. In some cultures, people count their age as "XX summers" or "YY seasons", which may be relevant.

Ooh! The plot thickens. Read this, biologos.org/articles/long-life-spans-in-genesis-literal-or-symbolic/

Famous people in a lot of cultures were reported to have lives life-spans far longer than ordinary ones. Maybe it is a mesaure of how important they were felt to be? biologos.org/articles/long-life-spans-in-genesis-literal-or-symbolic/

Nezumi65

lemongrove -the 90 days is NOT how the EU is responding to this situation. 90 days limit for non EU members in the Schengen region has been around for years. We won't be an EU member so we have to abide by non-EU member existing rules. It's not an EU 'response' at all.

And the UK 180 days is not a UK response either. It is what is currently in place (being outside Schengen we could set a different limit).

I think if people are going to accuse the EU of bullying the poor old UK it's important to understand what is a response (so could reasonably be argued to be bullying) and what is a current arrangement for those not in the EU.

I didn’t accuse the EU of bullying......
If they wanted to, they could ( under the circs) be as generous as the UK and make it 180 days.
Their laws are not written on holy tablets of stone.

Yes, the reporting of ages in the OT, Elegran

Noah died 350 years after the flood, at the age of 950, the last of the extremely long-lived Antediluvian patriarchs. The maximum human lifespan, as depicted by the Bible, gradually diminishes thereafter, from almost 1,000 years to the 120 years of Moses.