Eddie Izzard

how some actively encourage boys and men to be violent by words and deeds

First rule of misogyny, women are responsible for what men do.

womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

However, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the way Irish equality law works and a lack of knowledge of the legal exceptions and caveats which mean Ireland does not, in fact or practice, have a simple self-declaratory system. To claim it does misrepresents the situation there.

The Act also allows people to be treated differently on the basis of their ‘gender’ in all of the following circumstances:
People can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on;
People can also be treated differently if there is a risk that you could be embarrassed because of a lack of privacy;
People can be treated differently at sporting events if the differences are reasonably necessary and relevant and, in relation to educational establishments, having regard to the nature of the facilities or events.
Insurance companies may differently decide how much to charge people for annuities, pensions, insurance policies and so on, based on different risk assessments, if the differences are based on proper research and statistics (although EU law proscribes the limit of this exemption in so far as men and women must be treated the same).
People can be treated differently if it’s necessary for a drama or entertainment production.
A person making a will or a gift is entitled to choose whoever they want to benefit.
Services may promote or favour the special interests of one person or group over another.
Goods and services which can be reasonably considered as being suitable only for the special needs of certain people may be provided.
In shared accommodation people may be treated differently in relation to personal privacy where lack of privacy might cause embarrassment.
When the accommodation is provided by a person in their private home, if for example a home-owner took in a lodger.
When housing is provided by or on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality.
When the accommodation is reserved for a particular category of people.
Single sex schools are allowed.
Institutions providing religious training to ministers of a particular religion may admit students of only one ‘gender’.
Third-level or adult education institutions may treat students differently by way of traditional university sponsorships, scholarships, bursaries, and so on.
Clubs may be established for a particular group of people.
Any person can be refused goods, services or accommodation if an experienced provider believes that there would be a substantial risk of criminal behaviour or disorderly conduct by that person, including abusing the service and causing trouble by being abusive or aggressive.
A person may be treated differently because of a doctor’s clinical judgement in relation to the person’s medical condition.

Blaming women for men’s violence. Wow. How about men taking some responsibility for their own actions?

To accuse other women of "shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions" is offensive. You seem unable to look at this complex issue from anything other than one perspective.
Of course it is complex I don't think I have ever said it wasn't. What is simple is establishing freedoms and working hard to iron out the complications rather than issuing blanket bans
As for the remarks about women I suppose if you have never seen or heard it you have some sort of sugared view of how women behave. I haven't. I will support them, work for their advancement and freedoms, campaign for things which will improve their lives, it doesn't mean I don't know (because I have witnessed it) how some actively encourage boys and men to be violent by words and deeds. You may wonder why male violence continues, well one of the reasons is the women who expect and encourage it in their sons. I don't blame them, many of them are living, and know their sons will grow up, in communities where they need to fight their corner. But neither will I turn a blind eye to it. It's there.

I think there are two main problems with the issue of a transgender individual's rights.
firstly, the word sex has been quietly and stealthily removed from our language. Even an application for for something as innocuous as a library card will ask for gender not sex. This blurs boundaries. It causes confusion.

Secondly, to support unconditionally transgender rights, whether that is the media or politicians, or the public is seen as progressive and sympathetic. Its seen as the right thing to do. Anything other than 100% acceptance of the mantra transwomen are women is seen as transphobic and bigoted.

And so, because I dont fancy the idea of a Karen White in the next cubicle to me, or even the girlish Eddie, in the ladies, I must be a bigot. Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!

hugshelp

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

hugshelp the story is an undeniable sad and terrible one which no one would or could support. However using it to justify transphobia is a sep too far. The failure of the system to support or deal succesfully with this young person is not the fault of transpeople.
However the person who posted this has in the past been warned by the police for harassing a transwoman and her family, condemned for trivialising the holocaust and has generally behaved in ways which no one should accept. So I prefer not to give weight to anything he posts.He was also banned from Twitter at one point.

Its such a relief to see that the majority of contributors to this thread are both sympathetic/empathic to the difficulties trans people face, whilst able to link that the concerns about the self ID issue, the number of trans involved in sexual and violent assaults.
trisher, I've disagreed with pretty much all your contributions. You seem unable to accept that its ok for feminist women to take a different view than you do.
To accuse other women of "shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions" is offensive. You seem unable to look at this complex issue from anything other than one perspective.

trisher are you totally unable to understand and empathise with women in refuges that are triggered by the presence of anyone with a male body, even if that male body identifies as a transwoman? Why do you think refuges don't have male staff, or allow older male children to stay with their mothers and female siblings? Not because the staff aren't able to do their best safeguarding vetting but because the presence of these individuals is traumatic to some women.

Quoting myself here as you didn't answer my earlier post, maybe you didn't notice it trisher Do you honestly think refuges ban male staff and teenage boys from staying with their mothers because they think they are a physical danger to the women in their care?

Chewbacca

Do you think you've changed even one person's mind trisher? On this, or any of the other threads on this subject? Even just one?

Chewbacca No I don't think I have. Possibly I may have made some think a lttle bit, but prejudice and fear is always deep seated and unlikely to be altered easily. And you may ask why do I continue? I have at many times thought of just leaving you all to it, but then somebody posts something which is eoither a direct question to me, something so unbelievable it needs combatting or something I know and feel passionately about. And so in spite of myself I return to post. When I feel really down about this I think of the people who really suffer, the trans people driven to suicide, the people who live their lives never knowng where they belong. When I was working one of my colleagues sometimes called me Rosa after Rosa Luxembourg. It's a name I'm proud to aspire to. In her words Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202012/medium-541864-ednb82rxoaing65.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202012/medium-274432-ednb82zxkaampla.png

Twitter September 2019:

Trans woman who looks like this and calls women 'bitches' issues a threat to any woman who would dare challenge them for using a women's toilet.

hugshelp

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

My goodness, that's a chilling document!

trisher

So can you explain this to me. You think because some transwomen may constitute a threat in Women's refuges (which is disputable) all transwomen should be banned from them. There is substantial evidence that the majority of paedophiles are men, but we do not ban all men from working in childcare or education. Why not? Are we somehow less protective of children?

Yes, men, women, transmen and transwomen should be able to pursue whatever career they want, free from discrimination. Women's rape crisis centres, set up by and for women, are not for men or transwomen.

Bravery is being 10 years old and having this happen to you:

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March 2019. She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.

Read more: metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/?ito=cbshare

It's not brave. Bravery is putting your life on the line and he's not doing that. I admired him for running all those marathons and he is very funny, but brave no!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Just in case you missed this trisher.
Someone posted it earlier.
It's an 18 page thread from mumsnet, of assaults etc by transwomen (or perhaps some are only men claiming to be transwomen, how are we to know?).
These are things that we are told don't happen, yet they do.

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

trisher Actually if you bother to read it she spoke to whoever answered the phone.

Of course I read it and saw that.
Sometimes the person who answered the phone didn't know and got someone else to speak.
It's obvious that those giving the answers would be management-level in the centres.

??? Chewbacca for your 17:32 post. My friend suffered at the hands of a transwomen and actually other women are suffering mentally because of threats over their sex-based rights from trans-activists.

However, I am much cheered that my RL friends take the stance that you and I and the majority of GNetters in this thread take.

Do you think you've changed even one person's mind trisher? On this, or any of the other threads on this subject? Even just one?

So can you explain this to me. You think because some transwomen may constitute a threat in Women's refuges (which is disputable) all transwomen should be banned from them. There is substantial evidence that the majority of paedophiles are men, but we do not ban all men from working in childcare or education. Why not? Are we somehow less protective of children?

I'm not suffering Chewbacca probably neither are you

So trisher, because you, and you assume, I, are not currently suffering any personal abuse or invasion of privacy, others have no problem either? How narrow visioned is that. The fact that there are currently vulnerable women in refuges, prisons, hospitals, care home facilities who have personally begged to not have men in their safe spaces because they fear for their safety, is irrelevant? The fact that there have been criminal convictions where a transgender has sexually assaulted women and children is irrelevant?

There has been several threads on this same subject in recent months and the vast percentage of contributors to them have almost unanimously agreed that they are not comfortable with a man, dressed in anyway he wants to dress, in their safe spaces. They are not comfortable with a man who happens to wake up some mornings, don a frock, a pair of high heels and a whip of lipstick and call himself a woman for a day and invade areas specifically for women. Why do you struggle to understand that? Why have you gaslit every poster who has presented well researched evidence, that having a man in safe spaces is an abuse of women's privacy and safety? Why do you have so little understanding of why a parent would be uncomfortable with a man, dressed in a girl guide uniform, sharing their daughter's tent? I thought for a while that it was just because you liked to champion the oppressed but, as that's predominantly cis women and children, that thought no longer seems aappropriate. So I'm still wondering.......

hugshelp you may very well have. point but how can that be viewed as anything to do with transpeople? Campaign to have it admitted to the law by all means but don't blame them because it isn't here.

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

Trisher-If the violence is coming from men, this can not be blamed on women wanting men out of their safe spaces.

You paint a picture of a shrinking violet trans woman shaking with fear because of name calling. Yet documented cases, you know, the ones where stats are kept, show predominately transwomen attacking, raping or sexually assaulting women. While I know that not all transwomen are violent, some of them are because they were violent as men.

Back to Eddie Izzard, the girls who chased him out of the ladies toilets were right to do it. And brave. They had no idea whether he was an innocent transwoman who just went to pee, or someone who wished them harm.

How do we tell the difference if all barriers come down

Just a quick visit, as I think there is an important point to be made for the sake of women.

A hate crime is defined as "any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice" based on one of five categories: religion, faith or belief; race, ethnicity or nationality; sexual orientation; disability; or gender identity.

Please note the word PERCEIVED. Please also note the glaring omission of sex on the list - violence against women because they are women, one of the most common forms of violence worldwide, is omitted. Who is it then that lacks equitable rights?

And of course I condone no crime committed against anyone for any reason.