Eddie Izzard

I don’t see any women on here encouraging or justifying violence, Trisher.

petunia

trisher, when you say that the level of violence against transwomen is increasing, who exactly is being violent? is it women?or is it other men?

There aren't the statistics on that petunia I have no doubt that most of the actual violence will be committed by men, however there will be in the background women shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions. If what you are doing is trying to say men are responsible for most violence of course they are, all the more reason for women to stand with the victims whatever their gender and not to encourage or justify the violence.

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

trisher, when you say that the level of violence against transwomen is increasing, who exactly is being violent? is it women?or is it other men?

FarNorth

athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/

It's obvious that this journalist spoke to management-level staff who knew well enough to trot out the lines they've been given in training.
Training that will probably have been created by the slightly-biased LGBT Scotland or Scottish Trans Alliance (the article was about Scotland).

The article's author mentions the fact that Scottish Government funding requires organisations to be trans-inclusive, but then dismisses it as if it will have no influence.
Those management-level staff know which side their bread is buttered.

Actually if you bother to read it she spoke to whoever answered the phone. But no matter who she spoke to, her assessment that what you are doing by criticising women's refuges, is actually dangerous and damaging to the very women you claim to be protecting, is completely accurate. If they do not have confidence in the service and do not access it because of your scaremongering you might very well be signing their death certificate. But hey as long as you get your own views about transwomen publicised who cares about that?

Chewbacca

*because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer*

Similarly, because a few men want to pretend to be women occasionally, all women must suffer.

I'm not suffering Chewbacca probably neither are you. The level of violence suffered by transpeople is rapidly increasing. I've no doubt you think you are being perfectly reasonable and not contributing to this, but there is no doubt that presenting negative images, making comments which are derogatory and refusing to recognise anyone only serves to add fuel to those who are violent. So perhaps it is time to stop pretending that it is nothing to do with you. I have no doubt that the landladies in the 1950s who stuck signs outside their properties saying "No Blacks, No Irish" imagined that racial harrasment was nothing to do with them either.
These are the figures if you are at all interested www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer

Similarly, because a few men want to pretend to be women occasionally, all women must suffer.

athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/

It's obvious that this journalist spoke to management-level staff who knew well enough to trot out the lines they've been given in training.
Training that will probably have been created by the slightly-biased LGBT Scotland or Scottish Trans Alliance (the article was about Scotland).

The article's author mentions the fact that Scottish Government funding requires organisations to be trans-inclusive, but then dismisses it as if it will have no influence.
Those management-level staff know which side their bread is buttered.

trisher I used the term 'passing' to mean that the person looks convincingly like a male.
You have already emphasised the importance of looks to someone's 'gender identity' .

If a woman asks for a female doctor or nurse, when an intimate examination is to be done, then that is what she should have.
Why would a transwoman worker want to insist on their 'right' to examine that woman?

You know that many trans people do not agree with your views, trisher?

Have you checked out Kristina Harrison, Rose of Dawn, Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley?
Those are just a few who have spoken and written publicly about this.

FarNorth

trisher

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

It's really unlikely that a transman (female) who is taking hormones in order to look male, and who is a medical professional passing as male, would suddenly put themselves in a situation of saying they are female in order to examine a female patient.

That is quite a ridiculous suggestion trisher.

I didn't say the transman had to say they are female in order to examine a female patient. Many male doctors and nurses examine female patients. But some deny the existence of trans so that's interesting as well. Because according to that theory any transman should be entitled to examine any woman- being female.
Of course it is FarNorth just as ridiculous as the idea that a transwomen who is a medical professional taking hormones and passing (as you put it- I'd use identifying) as female would put themselves in a position where they might be even accused of abuse. There will no doubt be an occasional exception to that, but far less I think than male doctors who abuse or mistreat their patients.
It seems however to be a constant theme on this thread that because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer.

FarNorth
I totally agree there.

Trans people are already protected in law.
It doesn't need to be changed.

trisher

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

It's really unlikely that a transman (female) who is taking hormones in order to look male, and who is a medical professional passing as male, would suddenly put themselves in a situation of saying they are female in order to examine a female patient.

That is quite a ridiculous suggestion trisher.

... he had no right to go into women's toilets
He was wrong, the girls were in the right
Also, he was a grown man and the girls were teenagers and he knew that.
The power dynamics writ large.

I don't support self-id at all.

I also don't support the current system of changing birth certificates. It should stop short at issuing a Gender Recognition Certificate, not proceed to putting a lie on a birth certificate.

Eddie Izzard on his first day in women's clothes, (not as trans though, he just liked to wear women's clothes), was chased out of a woman's public loo by a group of teenage girls. How were the girls supposed to know his intentions? Was he right or wrong to be in there in the first place?

He was at that point in time defining himself as a heterosexual transvestite so, as a self-defined heterosexual male he had no right to go into women's toilets.
He was wrong, the girls were in the right.

LumpySpacedPrincess

And if a vegetarian was offered a delicious meal on the pretence it is meat free. They are being lied to.

Love this point. Is a vegetarian pie still a vegetarian pie if it's full of sausages? One to ponder...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Long thread about all the things we are told not to worry about because of course it wouldn't happen.

No one has said there isn't abuse or women aren't sexually assaulted by men. It is seldom transwomen who do this though.

Men offend at the same rate regardless of how they define themselves.

This issue is about women and men. Women have a few protections as men are much more violent. Some men want to access the protections set aside for women and girls. That's the issue. Whether women and girls give up rights to validate and/or protect some men. Personally I think nope. Men need to sort themselves out and be kinder to feminine men.

Morning hugshelp. I'm sorry you have decided to leave. These threads quickly polarise.
Its a difficult subject-the trans issue. It seems that the two sides have a gaping chasm between them just shouting across to each other. Bit like Brexit really, when in fact the whole issue is more nuanced and tricky.

There are multiple layers to the issue that need addressing, from women's spaces, transitioning children, employment rights (for women)sports, prisons etc. Also, the issue that often doesn't make it to such threads is the paraphilias and fetishes that sit under the trans umbrella. Each deserves to be explored in an adult way without accusations being flung about. Also in an evidenced based way rather than subjective feelings.
Eddie Izzard claiming to be a girl just trivializes the whole issue.

I want to thank all the women who have contributed thoughtful, open-minded, considerate, meaningful discussion to this thread, and to farnorth for starting it. However my own psychological wellbeing is worth more to me than sticking around where I feel women are being gaslit, subjected to juvenile point-scoring, and misogynistic preaching. I have no desire to respond further to comments which seem to me to be puerile and designed to do no more than illicit any response that can be further twisted to a specific agenda. Naturally that is just my opinion, and I do not suggest others have to agree with it.
I wish you all well, whatever your beliefs.

The term Trans has come to include all manner of behaviours and appearances that a far far removed from the trans sexual individuals who “pass” and live amongst us. Stonewall, who state “acceptance without exception” define trans as

TRANS
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

If we breakdown the lawful boundaries around female only spaces and the social convention that goes along with it and biological sex becomes meaningless, how do we protect vulnerable women and children from the opportunist.

Eddie Izzard on his first day in women's clothes, (not as trans though, he just liked to wear women's clothes), was chased out of a woman's public loo by a group of teenage girls. How were the girls supposed to know his intentions? Was he right or wrong to be in there in the first place?

If someone stands beside me, if they look like a woman, if they are active about issues that affect women (like period poverty, waspie women, women's health issues) if they say they are a woman, present as a woman and identify as a woman I am willing to accept them as my sister. I don't propose to ask for a birth certificate or examine their genitals.

trisher this is my problem, what on earth does a woman look like or present as? I fear we are being lulled into 50s stereotypical images of women, surely the most retrograde step ever. Women are not hair, nails, dresses and fluffy kittens they are scientists, engineers, and anything else they wish!

The statistical evidence backs up pretty much none of what you say trisha

Women put their safely in the hands of professionals all that time. That doesn't stop hundreds of women being assaulted and murdered every year in the UK. Women who were failed by the system. Women are raped in hospitals. And yes women are raped in refuges. So maybe those women don't want to put all their eggs in one basket regarding their own safety.

Sticking up for the safety of women is not punishing trans people. Any more than not allowing men into women's safe spaces is about punishing men. It is about safeguarding women. As the majority of non-predatory men seem perfectly able to accept.

What about a man who identifies as a 6 year old girl. Should he be allowed to go to school with 6 year olds, change with them, compete at sports day against them?
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html