Eddie Izzard

The vast majority of men (however they identify) would not want to upset a woman in that way, which is why I would have thought that those wishing to live as women would understand the very real fears that a lot of women have, for a variety of reasons, of being in vulnerable situations, and would be more than willing not to put them in such a position.

Asking for this consideration to be enshrined in law is not akin to transphobia, buying into rightwing propaganda or any of the other things that have been suggested on this thread.

I am still waiting to hear how it can possibly be considered ethical for someone to pass themselves off as a woman when they are biologically male, and leave the onus on a vulnerable woman to (a) notice and (b) have the courage in a time of great stress to object to intimate contact.

SueDonim that's appalling.
That person clearly had no interest in the patient's well-being.

Why would a male person want to risk upsetting a woman by doing that?
It was nasty and selfish of him.

NiceasMice

So according to trisher, we have..

Older children who are a threat to other children in a care setting
Bad girls causing trouble in a school setting
Violent women are a danger to other women in a prison
But, there's a large group left out here and that is..
Men
All biologically born males.
Not all men but the men who are violent.
The proof is the number of violent men in prison compared to the number of violent women.

It is depressingly misogynist, isn't it?

I agree it takes courage to stand up and say I'm a man who likes to dress this way FarNorth

sparkling No, just a man who says he is in 'girl-mode'.
Much less brave, nowadays, than his previous statement of being transvestite.

Re the question of consent to examination, this very thing happened to a friend and it was reported in the Times. After being sexually assaulted she requested a female examiner. A large, black-bearded, deep-voiced person in a female nurse’s uniform arrived to conduct the exam. Friend said she had asked for a woman to do the exam. The nurse said they were a woman, having in the meantime put themselves between my friend and the door of the room, intimidating her even further.

Friend managed to extricate herself from the situation but was utterly distraught and retraumatised by her experience, which she should never have been exposed to in the first place. That her rights come way below some man who ‘feels like a woman’ disgusts me.

trisher Have you considered who is funding Stonewall? Have you looked at who is benefitting financially from the trans movement? There will always be vested interests who have a vested stake.

Yes we may be unknowingly sharing facilities with someone who is trans. If they pass and no one is the wiser then nobody is harmed. However allowing self ID means that women cannot challenge any man using a woman's facilities and even leaving the ladies toilets because someone's presence makes a woman uncomfortable has already resulted in women being disciplined at work for transphobia. Why should women be forced to share a space with someone that makes them uncomfortable? There will always be people that break the laws and some will get away with it, but I'm not going to leave my doors unlocked with a sign indicating where the valuables are.

There have always been paedophiles, does this mean they should have their prediliction recognised, respected,and protected in law? And no, before anyone misconstrues this, I am not suggesting being trans is the same as being a paedophile (though some paedophiles are using that argument) - I am merely illustrating that because someone does something under the radar we do not automatically have to allow it to be done openly.

So according to trisher, we have..

Older children who are a threat to other children in a care setting
Bad girls causing trouble in a school setting
Violent women are a danger to other women in a prison
But, there's a large group left out here and that is..
Men
All biologically born males.
Not all men but the men who are violent.
The proof is the number of violent men in prison compared to the number of violent women.

So is Eddie now a woman,

But some prefer to pretend they know otherwise. Who is pretending to know otherwise?

BlueBele I have said and the women working in women's refuges reported to the enquiry that they have efficient and working risk assessment procedures which deny access to any one of any gender who may be a danger to other women.
But some prefer to pretend they know otherwise.

FarNorth it's an interesting point. Before 2012 you could apply for a CRB check on any child under 18 involved with a voluntary organisation or in foster care. The age of criminal responsibilty being 10. In 2012 that changed and 16 is now the accepted age. It means that many voluntary organisations will not allow 13-16 year olds to help. I don't know why things were changed. I will look. With girls being seduced into prostitution rings and recruiting others at a very young age I think there is some indication that some sort of check needs to be available. I suspect that the real victims of this lack of provision will not be the girls who are members of voluntary organisations but in fact children placed in a care setting where older children have access to them.
It is a safeguarding issue but it isn't to do with trans people alone.

We won't get answers to any of this - we never do.

It's always a repetition of 'this has happened for hundreds of years', I am not bothered what is between someone's legs', 'you are all right-wing transphobes' or 'if only you were all as well-informed as I am you would agree with me', followed by a flounce from the thread and then an appearance on the next one about transwomen re-hashing the same replies.

How would it work in a domestic violence refuge would a man identifying as a woman be entitled to stay

DBS checks won't apply to boys who claim to be girls and are included in these so-called called girls' organisations.

As the boys girls and girls get older, that could lead to problems (mainly for the girls) while the adults involved may be completely unaware that there is a boy there at all.

Winner, trisher!

The safety and security of little girls is being chucked under a bus simply to accommodate a tiny percentage of men who are insistent that their needs and demands usurp all others.

I agree. And it also applies to the rights of vulnerable women who need all female spaces.

How far do you go to ensure that the rights of certain minorities are not compromised?

And, what about the young girls in the Rainbows, Brownies and Girl Guides who have now had the assurance that their spaces will be an all femail space quietly removed from them? They can no longer rely on their pack leaders or parents letting them know because they won't know either. And please, don't try to reassure me that their safety won't be compromised because a DBS check will protect them. It won't. As has been proven over and over again.

The safety and security of little girls is being chucked under a bus simply to accommodate a tiny percentage of men who are insistent that their needs and demands usurp all others.

* To make clear : I have had that happen with a person I met, not with a medical person.

Those far-right people may oppose trans rights and may also have objectionable views about other things.
So what?
People speaking up for women's rights are not automatically to be discounted because of some other people's views.

In answer to your question about 'how would anyone know [that a doctor had a penis]' I asked:
Why would someone refuse to be examined by someone who looks like a woman, even if the idea of a man touching them would repel them if they knew?

And how about if the patient had believed the nurse/doctor was a woman then realised suddenly, once the examination was underway, that they are a man?
That is not unlikely.
In a much less stressful situation, I have had that happen.

glinner.co.uk/the-guardians-catfishing-part-of-a-much-bigger-problem/ Lots of examples of lesbophobia here trisher.

Far right christian?? Again you can't seem to spell grassroots feminist movement...

to draw attention to the fact that you are actually already sharing them with transwomen, you just didn't know it. That you will continue to share them with transwomen because you won't know well if they look like Eddie Izzard I will know anyone looking less like a woman I can’t think of I think the mans an attention seeker and yes he’s a man for sure, he cannot expect to be a ‘he’ one week and accepted as a ‘she’the next,
I have nothing against any sex, any person male or female, I have no problem with gay or lesbian or trans but if a man continues to keep his penis he’s a man no matter what he says just the same if a woman remains built like a woman she isn’t a man
If a woman or man go through the process (very difficult, painful, long and uncomfortable process) to change their sex then they are what they want and need to be but if they just want to play at being the opposite sex and change this way or that when the mood takes them then they are having a laff

trisher

The people really opposing trans rights are right wing Christian groups because they are funding it. You may not like it but it's true. They operate with huge financial resources in the US and are moving them over here.

Yes, you keep saying this, and nobody has disagreed.

Would you please answer my questions about consent to examinations. For reference:

In answer to your question about 'how would anyone know [that a doctor had a penis]' I asked:
Why would someone refuse to be examined by someone who looks like a woman, even if the idea of a man touching them would repel them if they knew?

What about a girl who is too embarrassed to ask if a doctor is a man in a dress?

What about religious objections that are not about presentation, but about sex?

How is it ethical to mislead people like this? You may have no objection to being intimately examined by a man, but there are many women who do object, and their rights are being swept aside.

I later compared it to giving a beef burger to a vegetarian and saying it was soya, but this was also ignored. I would be very interested to hear how you respond to any of this, as well as the questions put to you by others on this thread.

The people really opposing trans rights are right wing Christian groups because they are funding it. You may not like it but it's true. They operate with huge financial resources in the US and are moving them over here.

Iv`e got no time for him so i couldn`t care less.

Pun intended.