can we discuss feminism please

Do these boys have fathers Trisher? As far as I understand/remember it is the behaviour of the male in the household that has the greatest influence on boys.

Undoubtedly some of them do Galaxy.But if that is true then we are apparently doomed to maintain traditional roles for ever You could equally argue that mothers will never raise daughters who are liberated whilst they continue to clean up after the male members of the family. Change has to start somewhere. Expecting a boy to clean, cook and care for children is surely something a feminist should do?

I expect men to be able to function without women teaching them. In terms of children I expect both parents to model skills etc.

Of course men should function without women teaching them Galaxy but according to petunia they aren't. So why aren't they? We are the generation of second wave feminists. The men we married and had children with might not have been raised in feminist households but our children should have been. Or is Simone De Beauvoir right and are some women complicit in maintaining the position of women? Can we really blame men for everything?

You would need to ask men that not me trisher.

Oh Galaxy that made me laugh. In other words you know women have some responsibility but you don't want to have to admit it. Accepting responsibility is part of emancipation you know.

No I think men are able to work these things out for themselves. The idea of women showing men how to do things makes my skin crawl. I dont think that should be asked of any women. I think if men need women to show them how to maintain a home ( and God help gay men and single men because they are buggered) then women would be better off single.
I also think it's some weird myth that people need to be shown certain skills, it's not rocket science is it. I dont remember cooking many meals as a child but I somehow managed to be able to produce a meal.

I actually would be very interested in the domesticity of those children brought up be single mothers, I dont suppose anyone has looked into it but I bet it would be interesting.

trisher

Oh Galaxy that made me laugh. In other words you know women have some responsibility but you don't want to have to admit it. Accepting responsibility is part of emancipation you know.

Could you be any more patronising to other feminists of your generation? Ta;I about teaching your grannies to suck eggs. This debate should be about more than who does the washing up and uses which toilet. It could be but seems destined not to develop any where

That's true, feminists/women have done nothing else but take responsibility. Violent men, right we will create domestic violence shelters for those women, creepy upskirting, right we will campaign for a law to make it illegal, men pretending that their partner died in a rough sex game , right we will campaign for that defense to be inadmissable, shops offering different toys to children dependent on sex, right we will campaign for toys to be toys, going further back rape within marriage is legal, right we will campaign to change the law. I think we have managed to take responsibility.

At times it feels like reading a gender studies O level essay. Radical feminists this, Second-wave feminists that, with no real links to the actual topic being discussed.

People don't fall neatly into categories, and do not think as one, even within those categories, and constant references to the 70s and De Beauvoir really don't move things on.

I'm confused. I'm hearing:
'Women are responsible for male violence. Women are responsible for men not doing housework. Those who don't believe this are labouring under some sort of false consciousness, but at the same time, are buying into support of the patriarchy.

Not wanting women to be subsumed into a 'non-men' class is also buying into the patriarchy, and this is being resisted by those who are happy for women to stop existing as a sex, and become a nebulous gender that is open to anyone who wants to join'.

It doesn't make sense.

trisher Take sport, in boxng there are categories. You wouldn't expect a bantam weight boxer to take on a heavy weight, so why not the same in other sports? Base the nvolvement not on gender but on weight/height/age there are heaps of other factors that could be used. It would not only widen participation it would make it more interesting.

Do you have no comprehension at all about the ways in which male bodies are structured differently to female bodies, and no I'm not referring to external sex characteristics? Men of comparable size to a woman will still have a bigger heart, bigger lung capacity, denser, stronger bones, longer levers and more upper body strength.
This study while quite restricted in content is a good start for bone comparison. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15746999/

So men are supposed to be role models to boys but women aren't supposed to show boys how to do housework. I notice the issue of all the posts on GN about men not doing housework have been ignored. So where does any change come from? Strangely enough Gay men and single men do manage their own chores possibly because no woman is there to take over from them. All that proves is men can do things if they have to, the question then is why don't they in a heterosexual relationship? What's the missing factor? -It's a woman of course. Perhaps a few women are forced by violence into taking care of everything but most aren't . Why do they choose to do it? Why don't they pass responsibility to the men in the relationship?
It isn't about who does the washing up, it's about breaking down roles and gender stereotypes and effecting real change. Because femnism isn't about just stopping people who break the law or changing laws its about changing society.
Just ignoring the question or pretending it doesn't matter leaves women still being the domestic servant, still picking up after men, and strangely enough they are then treated like an inferior in the rest of their lives. Is it so hard to see the connection?
I didn't raise the issue of domesticity by the way petunia did. But it's an interesting question

If you do the lion’s share of the chores in your home, the chances are you have mixed feelings about the idea of your spouse taking on a bigger burden, even if he were willing – because you suspect he’d do them wrongly, or to an insufficiently high standard (In one US survey, some women said they were more likely to delegate tasks to their children than their husbands for precisely this reason. “My wife insists on doing most of the cleaning and all of the laundry because of her belief that I don’t do well at these tasks,” as one male respondent to our survey put it, echoing many others.)

In her memoir-cum-self-help book, Drop The Ball, the American writer Tiffany Dufu calls this “home control disease”, and diagnoses herself as a recovering sufferer. This isn’t the simple sexism of the man who’d rather drink beer and watch Top Gear, but the insidious, internalised sexism of the woman who’s been raised to see an impeccable home as a sign of her worth

Rosie51 that's an interesting study. On the same site there is a study which shows there are differences between black and white peoples' skeletons. Do you suggest we segregate them for sports? -isn't there a word for that? Oh yes apartheid! pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10423041/

Nobody has said that women shouldn't show children how to do various skills, but it is a shared effort between two parents, otherwise the woman becomes the organiser and teacher within the home, yet more wife work.

Are you suggesting we stop all segregation in sport. I assume that the Paralympics are the same as apartheid as well.

I have not waded through all the posts..apologies. And this is a bit too long too...
Feminism must be about responding to people as people first..their designation based on reproductive organs is irrelevant in most day to day situations. For generations the majority of women have been treated as less valuable/ important than men. We all know at least the basic general history of women through the ages and that history is in every women's psyche to some degree or another Add to that women's personal experiences from birth onwards, their personality etc etc and you will of course get a variety of opinions, perspectives etc etc. Women really need to be kind to each other, stop judging. People become defensive if they feel under assault or if their 'raison d'etre' is being undermined.
I believe I am a feminist. I have had a purposeful career, alongside a family life with a partner who contributes equally to maintaining the home & our life. My partner and I have raised two assertive daughters. But if I had freely made an informed CHOICE and had a more gender traditional life I could still be a feminist. #Feminismcomesindifferentguises

Galaxy there is much discussion among disabled people about paralympics and sport. Some feel that the categories and criteria used are not fair or equitable.
I love this Lost Voice Guy's take on the Paralympics
lostvoiceguy.com/2016/09/19/not-so-superhuman/

Yes I know the discussion about criteria etc, I am asking if you are suggesting an end to all segregation in sport.

trisher how dare you suggest I'd favour segregation on the grounds of skin colour, that's an extremely insulting low blow to try and win an argument! The advantage one race would have over the other is much, much smaller between opponents of the same sex, than that between opponents of opposite sexes whatever their race. In fact you have demonstrated why a fight between a white woman and a black man of the same weight category would be immensely uneven.

The fact is there are physical differences that result in being male/female. It is not really relevant to feminism. Some males are not a
physically bigger/ stronger than some women etc etc. I do not see feminism as denying general physiological differences but not treating one set of ' attributes' more preferentially.

Galaxy I'm suggesting that the criteria for dividing sport into categories could be something other than sex.
Rosie51 I was simply demonstrating that academic papers can be used to support anything.

Shall we pick some criteria. Say the ones listed by Rosie. I would be delighted by that. Those lobbying for mens inclusion in the womans category would be very upset.

Spot on! Wolf whistles on their own are just a bit of fun. Have the confidence to take it as a compliment, give a little wave as you walk on and they will probably be thrilled. If anyone feels harassed by this I'd say they had confidence issues.

What a ridiculous paragraph.

It’s not a woman’s job to make a man “thrilled”.

Not wanting to be an object is not a lack of confidence.

So yes, I suppose o consider myself a feminist.

Agree with you summerlove I do (did) not need any stranger's "compliment" via a wolf whistle to let me know I met with their approval as a sex object. If some women felt flattered by that I would suggest that their level of confidence & self esteem could be considered low if they needed that type of ' approval' from strangers about physical appearance.