can we discuss feminism please

Exactly, governments find money for things the value. This government doesn’t value children or their mothers

My mother had a hysterectomy and in those days it was a 6 month recovery time. She wasn't allowed to do housework so we were assigned a cleaner-free of charge- because we were poor. I remember thnking she was incredibly clever because she could wash the floor, smoke and talk all at the same time!
No one even thought my dad should do it!

Looking at the broader picture I believe as a society we have become obliviously to the fact that ‘ we cannot have it all ‘
And sadly for so many across the globe this is abundantly clear.
There are certainly still so many who still do not have in life that which the average person accepts as the norm.
So I am not sure what feminism means for folks today, it seems to me that so many women don’t have the luxury of contemplating it. For those who have achieved what they fought for, please spare a thought for those still cannot.

Bidgeit I'm not sure what you mean by those who have acheived what they fought for there is ncreasing evidence that what we fought for is being steadily eroded.
If by "so many who still do not have in lfe that which the average person accepts as the norm" you are referring to the poorer countries of the world I can see no conflict in demanding feminist rights and demanding a decent lifestyle for all. Indeed many feminists are active in both areas. Believing women should have a better life is not restricted by the borders of countries. Advocating getting rid of patriachy often means looking again at economic systems and making a more equal life for everyone.

I mean Across the globe, in parts of the world there are still those who have no choice in how they live/ survive.
So although it is important to fight for certain ideals ,we should never forget that we are in a privileged position & perhaps put into perspective that for which we strive.

I don't understand why someone can't fight for the right to proper maternity leave and job protection and also support better conditions in poorer countries. Fighting for one does not mean ignoring the other. In fact the women who are femnists often support other women in other countries through Oxfam and other development agencies and by shopping ethically.

Trisher I mean that there are Still parts of the world where folks don’t have Human rights, or Human equalities, so whilst I support gender equalities etc, I cannot get as passionate about it as I do about all of the above .

That’s like saying that we shouldn’t bother vaccinating against Covid until nobody is dying from Malaria.

It’s not a race to the bottom, and the phrase ‘cannot have it all’ has been used to belittle women - or to suggest that those of us who want equality are grasping or greedy - for decades.

As a matter of interest, have you read the test of the thread, Bridgeit?

Humans cannot have it all, life is very very unfair, starvation, cruelty, inequality the list is endless ..perhaps some get absorbed in their own axe to grind & don’t see the bigger picture...

What does feminism mean today, surely the answer to that Should be the same as it always did.
When there is are NO Issums in the world we will have indeed obtained equality.

What does feminism mean today, surely the answer to that Should be the same as it always did.
Why is that? Society changes, so naturally so will the ways in which people respond to that society. Do you disagree with that? If so, fine, but it is difficult to respond constructively without knowing what it is that you are arguing for or against.

When there is are NO Issums in the world we will have indeed obtained equality.
Very profound . But this thread has been about how we obtain that equality. That is not to say that we shouldn't push for other 'Issums' to be considered too.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but the term 'Issums' comes across as you being very dismissive of feminism, (and potentially racism, classism and so on). If that is the case, why not discuss why you feel that way instead of presenting a statement as though it is fact?

I think we all know that humans can't 'have it all', but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to achieve a fairer deal for everyone, and starting with women is as good a place as any. There are plenty of pressure groups making the case for equality for others, and many feminists will belong to some of those too - we get everywhere!

I express myself how I express myself, as do you, I am not anyone other than myself.
Yes you did jump to a conclusion, but that’s to be expected if we do not understand each other’s style of expression.

bridgeit I get what you are saying and we all have limits on our energy and time to campaign, think about, do something about all issues we feel strongly about. But in the inequalities that exist all over ..women are often, with their children, the hardest hit and suffer most. So in fighting and supporting campaigns against poverty , lack of clean water, access to education you will be supporting better lives for women.

Yes absolutely, not sure why you would think I didn’t, perhaps I don’t express myself very well .

My husband used to work with Germaine Greer at Warwick uni back in the day. She was very outspoken, quite over the top in many ways but it was probably necessary as a wake up call. I don’t think her brand would work now but you have to admire her because she was a pioneer of her age. She wasn’t popular at all ,of course, but I guess popularity isn’t a measure of success.

Bridgeit

I express myself how I express myself, as do you, I am not anyone other than myself.
Yes you did jump to a conclusion, but that’s to be expected if we do not understand each other’s style of expression.

That's why I asked (if I was jumping to a conclusion), as I wasn't sure what you meant, and didn't want to make assumptions.

I still don't think that we should stop fighting for one cause because there are other, equally valid ones, though. We all pick and choose from the numerous charities that in an ideal world we would support, for instance.

That doesn't mean that we don't care about the ones we don't support financially - just that we don't have enough money to support them all .

Bridgeit

Humans cannot have it all, life is very very unfair, starvation, cruelty, inequality the list is endless ..perhaps some get absorbed in their own axe to grind & don’t see the bigger picture...

But there is no conflict between fighting poverty and believing in feminism, in fact the reverse is true. Supporting women can bring changes in poverty. There are numerous places where initiatives to develop and encourage women's work has raised the whole community. Feminist initiatives tend as well to be set up with other aims besides that of profit for one or two in favour of shared benefits.
Women suffer more in poverty www.oxfam.org/en/why-majority-worlds-poor-are-women
Feminism isn't limited by economic or political barriers.

Haven’t been here before, often read but not comment. So this caught my eye and I’ve been interested in reading opinions.
I love that girls these days have the benefit of feminists before them, although I know there is still along way to go. I love to see women in the media and really holding their own in what was once perceived as a “mans world” good on them I think it’s wonderful.
I’m just past 62, didn’t have a good education but I “married well”, my husband quite academic and while I produced 3 children he got on with the job of providing. I never felt anything but lucky to have him, the money he’s earned has always been our money, I’ve also worked. However, I’ve relied on him and his earning power over, he has never begrudged me a thing, so I’m guess I’m very lucky.
I wonder what does this make me, a I like to fly the feminist flag but I often wonder where would I be without my husband of 40 years?
My daughter very much an independent woman and I love that, she has a great partner, times have moved on thank god.

MarketKat, I was a "stay at home mum" from choice. Then, later, we both worked part time in order to raise the family and enjoy the children equally. To me, the important thing was the choice not expectation. I was lucky to be a team with my husband and we chose this path together.

If you had wanted to take a job outside the family, the important thing is having the option to do this.

I feel very very lucky. Yes,I earned less than my husband (except for one job) but that is because if the jobs I chose. Some jobs just do pay less.

Hello Marketcat and welcome .

There is a recent thread on stay at home mums that you might find interesting.

I don’t think that it matters who earns more, as long as both partners have a genuinely equal say in choices that affect them both. As you say, it is a partnership.

As regards the relationship between stay at home mums and feminism, my views are that the choice to stay at home when children are at school can only be made because others don’t make that choice, as their contributions to the economy underpin the choice to stay at home.

When both ‘sides’ are genuinely choosing, this is fair enough, but in situations where one mother has to work for financial reasons she is then compelled to contribute towards the support* of the ones who don’t, and that seems to me manifestly unjust.

For the record (not that it matters), I did choose to work, so I am not saying this from a position of resentment- I just get a bit irritated when I hear the suggestion that it is a choice for everyone.

*By ‘support’ I mean general things like pension contributions, education and health - not the day to day financing of the individual family.

You are right, Doodledog it is not a choice for everyone, though in "my day" in the UK, single mums could (and many did) stay home till the children left school because of the benefits system which allowed this.

It is very hard living on benefits I know, but it was an option here in the UK which isn't there now.

We essentially managed on one income, but it was very tight. And I mean "turn the sofa over for coins" tight, not "only one holiday this year" tight! I say this as people's idea of being under financial strain is still, frankly, ridiculous... I know we were some of the lucky ones
^

We were never hugely well off and with 3 children there were challenges, so I did work part time in Asda for many years, while my husband had a phd and worked at a university, I always felt a bit inferior to his work colleagues wives and I use to get plenty of “stick” from my own work colleagues, always felt caught between two cultures. He’s ended up as a professor, but we’ve rubbed along quite nicely all these years.
Thank you for your welcome, hope to join in more conversations. ?

I'm sure there was no need for you to feel inferior, Marketkat, but I do understand what you mean about being caught between two cultures.

I wasn't really talking about single mums - they vary from people with lots of money and resources behind them to those who have barely left school, and there is no 'one size fits all' that applies.

I was meaning families with two parents where one decides to stay at home, so the family as a unit pay one lot of tax, NI, commuting expenses etc, and don't pay for childcare. That is all fine in itself, but a family who can't afford to live on one salary have to pay two lots of everything, plus childcare costs, and thus subsidise the ones who can afford to have a parent at home, which is the bit I find unjust, as the system is prioritising the lifestyles of one group over another.

Means testing works against the working parents too, as having two salaries can often mean that they are not able to claim other subsidies (such as bursaries for student children, or pension credits for older people) which go to those who have not paid towards them.

This is not at all to say that people should be judged based on how much they earn, or that people who need it should not be helped, but when people - as on the SAHM thread - claim to have made sacrifices compared to working mums they overlook the fact that their choices are subsidised by the people they look down on from their high horses, many of whom do not have the luxury of choice.

That’s really interesting Doodledog, I’m learning coming here.
I agree with your points.

I think its difficult as I think the cost SAHM pay is quite high but in a different way. They are extraordinarily vulnerable in later life if they divorce and exiting an unhappy relationship is made more difficult, in many cases impossible, if you have been a SAHM. It is decision made by both parents but where it will be predominately women who pay the price. I also am wary of judging people by the financial contribution they make with regards to tax etc as many people can fall into that category for all sorts of reasons.