can we discuss feminism please

Petunia, no you aren’t out of touch with your understanding of modern feminism. Your contributions reflect and support the majority of post from other feminists.
Feminism means much the same as it always has. The search for equality of opportunity, for equal relationships between men and women, in the work and domestic arena.
That covers all aspects, including race, physical/ mental health, gender and so on.
There have always been differences of opinion, different branches of feminism. Anyone involved in the women’s movement in the 70’s and 80’s could write the book on the heated debates.

I think actually basing ones opinions solely upon personal experiences just gives examples of how or if we have managed to put our feminist principles into action. Only one of my DSs has children and he is involved in caring for those children on an equal basis whilst working from home. He can plait hair, iron dresses and bake bread as well as doing DIY. One of the others bakes excellent cakes while his partner has recently fitted out her own kitchen. The day to day life of working people is of interest but thinking it is only women who can child care or home school whilst working from home is just wrong. Men can and are doing it. Not enough I admit but then who is to blame for that? You can't completely blame men if they aren't taught to take on other roles because their wife or mother has always picked up for them.
As for the rules and gender so much of society is tied up with those because it enables men to remain powerful that is the nature of patriachy. Accepting different ways of living and widening our expectations of gender roles breaks down those barriers.
Take sport, in boxng there are categories. You wouldn't expect a bantam weight boxer to take on a heavy weight, so why not the same in other sports? Base the nvolvement not on gender but on weight/height/age there are heaps of other factors that could be used. It would not only widen participation it would make it more interesting.

Trisher, I started this thread because for two reasons. Firstly, mainly, I was beginning to wonder whether my understanding of feminism needed updating and I wondered whether a separate forum was needed. There is one on mumsnet, I personally would like to see one here. I think this thread suggests that there are posters out there who also would use such a forum.

Secondly, although I did not state this at the start, (I wish I had), I was musing to myself about the lock down and the role of women in relation to domestic responsibility. I had observed that women who were able to work from home often (but not always) assumed the task of homeschooling on top of their own work. I saw this in the parents of my grandchildren peers, and in news pieces and social media comments. However, the thread quickly assumed a life of its own. No problem. Some things need to be said and many of us have expressed those opinions.

Those musings lead me to consider the role of feminism in today's society, hence the thread. Clearly I am out of date with my understanding of modern feminism. The day to day life of working women is no longer of interest it would seem.

I don't see a long rant in support of patriarchy? Has something been deleted?

I read that Biden was going to remove single-sex exemptions as soon as he took over. My first thought was that there are sure to be problems with this, and that (awful as it is likely to be for women in the US) I hoped that when they came to light they would deter anyone from passing similar legislation here.

I do feel that politicians are waking up to the realities of what might seem at face value like a nod in the direction of equality for a minority, however. Unfortunately, the burning torch brigade are ever ready to shout down anyone who dares to give an alternate point of view to their own, so it takes a brave politician to speak up, and many try to dodge the issue in the hope that it will go away.

I can't remember any other single issue being as able to silence people as this one.

Wow petunia a long rant in support of patriachy on a femiinist thread. It seems Simone De Beauvoir was right there are women who are complicit with keeping women as "other".

Some great comments here-Doodledog, Galaxy and others.

We have rules based on sex already but we also have organisations, the media and individuals pushing hard against the boundary.

Sex does matter, absolutely. We cannot makes rules to accommodate endless varieties of gender that can not be defined or that constantly changes.

Just to add an intercontinental flavour to this argument;

President Bidden has indicated that there are now plans to allow anyone to enter the sport category of their chosen gender, not sex. Its a bit of a change from loos and changing rooms! But allowing anyone to enter any athletic competiton they chose will almost certainly see the end of female athletics in the USA. Women will just say, why bother, I have no chance at all. Sex does matter.

No because the equality act is based on sex. The protected criteria is sex which can apply to all sorts of situations prisons, sport, personal care for the elderly and those with disabilities, sex matters in all those cases.

The only possible reason for even asking about sex should be medical. There is absolutely no reason for it to be involved in anything else from pronouns to changing rooms. In fact once it is seen as normal to deal with someone simply as a person and not as male or female, however they present, surely we will have true equality.

I'm thinking aloud here, but maybe we need to separate the terms we use for sex and gender, so someone could identify as Male/whatever or Female/something?

That way, people who wanted to could make their gender clear, which is obviously important to a lot of people identifying as a gender that is different from their sex, whilst remaining in the sex that they were born with, unless they fully transition to the other. Sex should, IMO, be the characteristic that applies under law.

Male/whatevertheterm people should use male facilities, and men could broaden the remit of what it is to be male, whilst women would remain secure in female spaces whatever their own gender preferences.

In time, people would get used to seeing men in dresses in male spaces, and women would not feel threatened by having them in theirs.

Again, as has been repeated over and over on these threads, this would only matter in situations where people feel vulnerable - the majority of the time it would be business as usual - the only difference being that sex would remain a protected characteristic.

Or prostate cancer even.

I am not regulating anyone life that's just nonsense. Their sex is female. They are at risk from cervical cancer not prostrate cancer. Its not regulation its biological reality.

I beg to differ Galaxy. The document I had to fill in to register for the Covid vaccine had 4 options.

Male
Female
Non binary
Do not wish to disclose

And what is a non-binary woman Galaxy? I really don't understand this desire to regulate and control other people's lives.

They can declare themselves to be any gender they want, no body cares. The services women are talking about are segregated by sex and these are protected under the equality act. A non binary man is still a man.

But they can't! They have to legally declare themselves one gender or another. There is no provision to be non-binary. Really that is the whole point. As for the statement about every women well in that case they won't mind sharing facilities with other non-binary people.

They can identify in whatever way they wish. Every women I know is non binary.

So if there are only two classifications -you can call them sexes if you wish but gender is different,- what happens to people who feel their body does not match their own idea of their gender and people who do not want to identify as any gender but are non-binary. The patriachy insists they must identify as one or the other. Do you support that?

Absolutely gender is simply a list of stereotypes.

We don't need gender at all. Do away with gender classification, the two sex classes are all we need. Present how you want, like what you like, love whomever you want to. Why confine yourself to a strict stereotype, whether that be a binary one, two spirit, astral or anything else. Dare to be the unique you. If we're going to continue with genders I do wish there wasn't this tendency to conflate them with sex. Masculine and feminine are genders, male and female are sex classes.

I don't know MBHP1 why do we have it? Why do we have laws which insist a person must identify s male or female with no other recognised genders? There are other cultures which recognise different genders and have always done so. For example Native Americans recognise such people as "two spirit" and have either 3 or 4 genders www.ihs.gov/lgbt/health/twospirit/
Could it possibly be that such a restrictive and prescriptive legal system benefitted men and maintained the patriachy?

You can present in what ever way you wish but you can’t change your sex, that is science.
I have just been reading about the Gender Recognition Act 2002 which was created to facilitate same sex couples getting married as one would identify as the other gender....how crazy and homophobic is that to say nothing of the ‘pretence’ game. Now that same sex marriage is legal, why do we have it?

Who benefits from all the lifetime drugs and surgery that is part of it? I see £ signs.

Is it possible to remove someone’s post on here?

Galaxy that whole statement buys into the idea that being non-binary is something which only changes the definition of what is female, the whole point is that expectations of masculinity are challenged as well. It seems to me that in the years since second wave feminism little progress has been made in tackling domestic violence, so some alternative way has to be found.

No it thinks it is abolishing sex, it isnt for all the reasons described, non binary men will not be affected by the pay gap, nor will they be affected by the statistic of 2 women a week killed by men, but non binary women will be. They arent abolishing gender they are reinforcing it.

Doodledog great post. Your last paragraph is spot on.

I don't know one single person who 100% conforms to their stereotypical gender ID. I'm a woman, I know this because of my biology. I have no idea how a woman should "feel" I just am. I like some things typically associated with females, hate others. Love watching lots of sports, a love that for decades was associated with males. What I will not accept is people like a certain bearded, male bodied person who identifies as lesbian stating they're broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman. Surely the honest thing would be to broaden the bandwidth of what it is to be a man?

I have only skimmed this thread, limited time and it is 10 pages, seems to be a lot about trans issues.

Those that go on about women only places and separate changing rooms etc. I would like to ask how do you know someone is trans? Do you ask everyone in toilets and changing rooms or the doctor or nurse treating you or anyone else that you feel should not be in your space.

If for example a man wants to sexually assault you by dressing as a woman and going into a woman's toilet, sounds odd but that is what you are implying, then they would . This would be a sex offender not a trans woman.