can we discuss feminism please

Really interesting posts from Grandma70s and petunia

I was lucky to fall into a job on leaving school that had equal pay and supposedly equal progression through the ranks. However, women did not really progress through the ranks. Female managers and officers were greatly outnumbered by the men. The men, and quite often the women saw the woman's job as less essential, their pay was often referred to as pin money.

Also the behaviour of men during this time I found alarming. I was a shy, naive 18 year old from an all girls school. I had not developed the banter or put downs to use when a man, in an otherwise spacious office, chose to get around me by placing his hands on my shoulders or hips and “squeeze” by. Or assume that because I was the young girl on the team, it was usually my turn to make the tea.

In the workplace today such attitudes and behaviour and the treatment of women have improved hugely. Those improvements were in no small part due to the feminist movement and the changing expectations of women.

Personally I would like to see a feminist board on gransnet.

I didn’t really understand why feminism was necessary for many years. I was not discriminated against in any way because I was female. My education at my single-sex school was as good as my brother’s at his boys’ school. We did the same subjects. I went to university just as he did. My job was one done by either men or women, and the pay was the same.

Eventually I realised that it was not like this for all girls. I met friends who were made to do housework at home while their brothers did none. I even met girls who were “not allowed” to go to to university because they “would only get married”. And this was in our relatively advanced society. It was even longer before I realised what life was like for girls and women in other cultures.

I suppose I was lucky in that my mother was an educated woman. My parents met at university. Again, although I knew she had treasured her time at university, I didn’t fully realise that it was relatively unusual for a woman in the 1920s. All the teachers at my school were female graduates, so it just seemed the norm to me.

I have, I think, emerged from my bubble now, and know more about the rest of the world. Feminism is necessary.

Those who purport not to find wolf whistling offensive, always seem to miss a vital fact, it often aimed at girls. Girls as in children, because as we all know girls develop at different rates. I have a junior school opposite me and whilst some girls look like the child they are, others, don't! I first became aware of having a couple of random men slowing down in a car and shouting whatever at me when I was aged 12, I can remember being scared.

So all those who lament the passing of the wolf whistle out of their lives and think that others over react when they say they didn't like it. I guess you are also quite comfortable to have female children subjected to unwarranted attention often from adult men!

I was brought up in an all girl household feeling always rather sorry for my dad!
Very strong person my mum... we were never in awe of the male role or considered ourselves to be lesser beings. Naturally we understood physically we were no match however it was having a very proactive mother who led the way for me.

You are totally on-piste NotSpaghetti. Totally right about it all starts at the beginning. Early years and earlier. In fact it starts with ourselves - firstly being aware of the sexism we have automatically taken on-board as we have grown up in this society and then trying to make sure we don't repeat it to our children.

That's twice somebody has called me bitter on Gransnet in the last 15 minutes. Just as well I'm not taking it personally. ???

I was brought up in a household where both parents worked. My dad cleaned the house as well as my mother. I worked in the City in the late sixties into the mid seventies. I saw as many women in high positions as men. I was a paste up artist and worked for a female graphic designer and a man. Have to say that I detest the the use of words such as chairperson instead of chairman or chairwoman. I detest the fact that the word actress seems to have been lost. Why are women called actors the same as men she asks. I see women becoming bitter and wanting to take over the world rather than being part of it and making it a better place. Bitterness is not a nice trait to have. It shows in the eyes...the window to our souls....

Women couldn't fight on equal terms with men through most of history simply because they were not so strong; they didn't receive the training in childhood, and so many of them died young in childbirth, That doesn't mean that there were no female warriors, but they were few and far between.
Now warfare is not so dependent on brute strength but on knowledge of weaponry and how to deploy it; equal opportunity.

Brilliant post notspaghetti. The behaviour around gender damages boys as well as girls.

lizziepopbottle you are right. Education is key. Not only do we need to educate the girls but the boys too. But this education needs to start early and parents still need to stop calling girls "princess" and encouraging boys to be small men.

I feel pretty strongly about children's early years. I don't honestly know how things can change to empower boys and girls (and everyone else) equally. We need to develop a kinder society where individuals are raised to be of equal value.

There was a little of this in the Surestart programme which encouraged those families without great role models to grow and develop. My local Surestarts helped dads find gentle ways of dealing with their children and helped mums and dads alike gain new skills.
I feel I've gone a bit off-piste here, but we need to start very early if everyone is to have the same (or even close to the same) chances in life.

I just wondered where this line men stepped over was. Was a quick grope in the stock cupboard OK? Or threatening someone with the sack if they didn't go along with it? Because after all it was just a bit of fun wasn't it.

Imagine that being your ambition for your daughters. That they should have to resort to violence just to go to work or walk down the street.

If any man stepped over the line we dealt with it.

Really? What about women who were intimidated? How about the fact that those men thought you were fair game for sexual comment and maybe worse?

If anyone held my hand or put their arm around me in a work capacity and without my consent, a stiletto on the instep would be the least of their worries.

I dont even know how to respond to that.

I have never described myself as a feminist but I realise there are women who feel strongly about this. However the current more extreme elements, including MeToo, are in danger of changing this hitherto sensible movement into an object of ridicule. For example the word mother is sex discrimination so should no longer be used. Any man who dares to hold your hand or, shock horror, put his arm around you is guilty of sexual harassment and might well lose his job- and don't even think of addressing a group of women as ladies or addressing one as love. That is almost deserving of a prison sentence.

As to finding wolf whistles offensive ,do lighten up. My only regret is that I no longer get them! My generation had no problem with what would now be regarded as offensive. If any man stepped over the line we dealt with it. I remember a stiletto heel on the instep was the ultimate deterrent when all else failed , painful for the recipient but far easier than the commonly recommended solution!

When I was in my teens learning Spanish, our teacher talked about the "piropiro" - anything from a flowery phrase of appreciation to a wolf whistle. I felt flattered and doesn't bother me in the least, but I hate "feminism". I will open doors for anyone, offer help with shopping etc. But hate the nonsense of feminist language - no more chairmen, poets - either chair persons, poetesses or sports people. When is it going to become obligatory to call your female cat a catess or (worse) a queen? But about time we had equal pay and serious respect in the workplace.

I am a real oldie. I recall in my far-off days in primary and high school, if female teachers married, they had to leave. I wonder how many concealed marriages there were, so that couples had the benefit of two incomes?. As homosexuality was not mentioned in those days, nothing was said about the masculine gym mistress who lived with the feminine maths mistress

I am always interested when people say that feminism has gone too far what they mean. The feminist campaigns that I am currently aware of are the campaign that made up skirting illegal, the campaign around we cant consent to this (when men use the rough sex defence when they have killed a woman), the campaign around the law relating to attempted strangling if women. Is that those pesky feminists going too far?

A great thread vampirequeen,i agree too.

I think you must be out to raise my blood pressure David0205

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_Sandes

David0205

“There is archaeological evidence being uncovered which indicates that women were actually warriors along side men.”

Come on Trisher you don’t really believe than when it comes to fighting women are equal to men do you. We all know about Boudicca and Joan of Arc, women were leaders, but fight on equal terms, no.

I do rather hope this is a parody post, David0205.

But... The presence of individual women, dressed as men, fighting alongside men in many different cultures is very well documented.

Why do you think that women couldn't fight 'on equal terms'?

Not that I really want to concentrate on 'woman as warrior'. What I'm questioning is the use of male generated 'standards' to judge the 'worth' of women. Is being a warrior really more 'worthy' than being a mother?

Does a propensity to be able to fight make a woman a 'real' person as opposed to a mere child (and meal) producer?

sarahcyn

Maybe one reason GN is reluctant to encourage debate on feminism is that it has now become a toxic and fraught issue, with little to do with holding doors open or equal pay.
Many feminists object to men being allowed to self-identify as women; many feminists object to the avoidance of using the word woman etc.
For example in my own field we are advised to refer to “pregnant people” and refer to breastfeeding as chestfeeding to avoid excluding trans people. Not everyone feels comfortable with this.
And there are other feminists who say that to express reluctance to change one’s language in such a way is in itself an act of violence towards trans people, who are or have been a persecuted minority.
So what I’m saying is basically...maybe best not to go there.

I think it is best to go there! This is exactly the reaction that transactivists want us to have, to be intimidated by them. I refuse to be called a womxn or cis and we do have breasts and a cervix There have been cases where women are being refused support to breastfeed because they won't call it chest feeding. This is in addition to demanding women lose their sex (not gender) based rights such as women only safe places.
We only have to look at the current leadership of the pandemic to see how women's voices are not being heard.

First of all, I believe equality begins at home, with children learning from their parents. I accept that, even in these supposedly enlightened times, there are many homes where this doesn't happen, or not in an enlightened way.

Then, it's education, education, education, resolutely, but not indoctrination. All schools should be co-ed, including faith schools, public and private schools, and subject to more regular inspection.

It's ingrained ignorance that's the enemy and there's a lot of it about. It's the result of centuries, millennia even, of acceptance, convenience, financial advantage and reinforcement and will take decades to change. We have to keep challenging it.

“There is archaeological evidence being uncovered which indicates that women were actually warriors along side men.”

Come on Trisher you don’t really believe than when it comes to fighting women are equal to men do you. We all know about Boudicca and Joan of Arc, women were leaders, but fight on equal terms, no.