can we discuss feminism please

Trisher I think that the type of society that you outline sounds much nicer than the one we are currently living under.

Indeed many of us have been known to hold doors open for men

Old habits die hard.

Anyone here read "Mars & Venus"? Let's talk humans, Men and Women are different, born that way! Men are/were hunter gatherers, and women gave birth and nurtured the offspring. There is nothing wrong with both men and women working or reversing the nurturing roles. All men and women should be treated the same in the work place, same pay and conditions.
Polite manners … I hold a door open for the next person behind me, without looking what the sex of the person is and would like others to do this for me.
If I'm not strong enough to do something it would be nice that someone else, male or female that's stronger than me, would help.
Plain old fashion manners need to be taught to our youngsters.

trisher I think we are in agreement. For most people, the doors thing is completely irrelevant (me included), for others it's the heart of feminism...

An issue of politics, which feminism is also, why at election time are Mumsnet quoted, and not Gransnet?

Is this about possibly the invisibility of the older woman?

Alegrias1 I think most feminists have moved past objecting to men opening doors for women. Indeed many of us have been known to hold doors open for men.

I've considered myself a feminist as long as I can remember.

I think the debate about wolf whistles on this thread reflects the debate about feminism. On one hand people who understand feminism as a way of looking at society and trying to make that society more equal, and on the other people who think its all about women objecting to have doors opened for them and blaming women for objecting to the unwanted sexual attention of men.

I know you are making a joke Lucretzia (at least I think you are.... ) but women wolf whistling at men, especially men they don't know, is just as bad a man whistling at women. Men can be sexually harassed too.

Well I am not the Oracle of young women chestnut . I think young women have lots of other awful issues to deal with, porn, social media etc.

If you are a feminist man you will not wolf-whistle at any woman. If you are a feminist woman you may or may not enjoy being whistled at, much like high heels, lipstick and short skirts is something which it is up to the individual woman to decide.

If women see wolf whistling as harmless that is their right.

I once wolf whistled a bloke that walked past me on the beach.

I suppose that must make me a sexist hussy

From what Galaxy says it sounds like we have moved on as a society if these 21st century young women take such a disapproving view of all this. Whether you think this is a good thing is up to you.

You are right of course, we should not be stuck on wolf-whistles, but as we can see here, plenty of women still see this as harmless fun.

Whilst women (and other, non-whistling men) don'tcomplain about "harmless fun" which is actually not fun and not harmless for many, and "office banter" - which is also not much fun if you are the subject of it, how can we say we are substantially moving on as a society?

If as a man you are wolwhistling teenagers, which is when this behabiour often starts then you are deeply creepy.

Imagine on a feminist thread discussing the behaviour of men that makes many women and girls deeply uncomfortable. The young women I know think men who wolf whistle etc are deeply sad, pathetic really, but then they are confident enough not to need the attention of men.

I can't believe that a debate about feminism has stuck on wolf whistles.
Agreed. But the fact that so many people get worked up and 'intimidated' by them speaks volumes about the lack of confidence amongst women. They see what is essentially a bit of harmless fun as threatening and intimidating. Like everyone else here, I had wolf whistles as a young teenager and even then I found them cheeky and amusing.

grumppa

One point if I may, trisher. First, in an earlier thread you referred explicitly to women and “other minorities”, and in this thread you make the same grouping implicitly. This is statistically incorrect: females actually outnumber males in all ethnic groups in the UK except Arabs (source: UK govt.). While I understand your appropriation of the term to describe how you see them being treated by the patriarchy, I do wonder whether calling women a minority makes it easier for your views to be attacked on the grounds that your facts are. wrong, and also devalues the term for genuine statistical minorities.

grumpa the meaning of "minoritiy" does not just depend upon the actual numbers that exist. Women are a minority because they are underrepresented in many areas of society. For example The House of Commons consisits of many more men than women, one of the current campaigns is to get more women to stand as MPs 5050parliament.co.uk
The sociological meaning is different to the statistical one.
Minority, a culturally, ethnically, or racially distinct group that coexists with but is subordinate to a more dominant group. As the term is used in the social sciences, this subordinacy is the chief defining characteristic of a minority group. As such, minority status does not necessarily correlate to population. In some cases one or more so-called minority groups may have a population many times the size of the dominating group, as was the case in South Africa under apartheid (c. 1950–91).
Hope that helps.
I can't believe that a debate about feminism has stuck on wolf whistles.

I miss wolf whistles I always saw them as a bit of harmless fun
I never felt intimidated by them but then until I got married I had never encounter controlling or superior men my dad was a gentle man in all aspects and both grandads too

Wolf whistles aren't meant to be complimentary - they are meant to intimidate and belittle. I am sure most women can think of examples when a young woman has been obviously embarrassed by the attentions of a group of men - but that has spurred them on.

It happened to me when I was about 15 - a line of army jeeps going through our village with the men whistling and yelling out remarks. I was almost in tears and felt so humiliated.

I do agree about the actor/actress etc. thing, Vampirequeen.

To me it’s anti-feminist to insist on ‘actor’ for a woman. It seems to imply that the female version is somehow inferior.

Yes I wish I could find it, I will have a look, but somewhere recently women were asked for their experiences of street harassment, it was incredibly moving to listen to the accounts, and a large number of them talked about their experience of enduring this at 13/14.

Galaxy I agree with you, I always found them bloody annoying. When they started at around age 12 to 13 they were disturbing. Far from being worried when I no longer got them, I actually found that a blessed relief in that I could walk along the road or wherever alone with my thoughts without some stupid "cheer up love" crap that so many of us have endured. I don't really want to think about my prepubescent granddaughter, or indeed anyone else's for that matter being whistled at whilst she's still a child, because that's often when it starts. [ hmm]

One point if I may, trisher. First, in an earlier thread you referred explicitly to women and “other minorities”, and in this thread you make the same grouping implicitly. This is statistically incorrect: females actually outnumber males in all ethnic groups in the UK except Arabs (source: UK govt.). While I understand your appropriation of the term to describe how you see them being treated by the patriarchy, I do wonder whether calling women a minority makes it easier for your views to be attacked on the grounds that your facts are. wrong, and also devalues the term for genuine statistical minorities.

I think it means gender equality. For men, as well as women. Yes, because we exist in a patriarchal society, feminism by default ends up mostly supporting women, but not only.

I have proudly been feminist since I was 11.

I think some of the most important issues feminists are dealing with at the moment ate violence against women, porn, and prostitution.

I consider myself a feminist, women & men are equal though in very many places in society this is not the case in reality, but as in any large group there are sub-groups... Look at political parties, religious groups etc etc. There will be differences of though but I think the basic tenet is that society shoud treat people equally regardless of their genitalia!