Meghan and Harry. Has anyone changed their opinion post Oprah?

But it is racist NellG as I explained somewhere, maybe another thread, not sure. And you conceded I believe. The reason it is racist is because it is only ever used in a derogatory manner ie name calling or insulting. It becomes racist because of the use of the description of the colour of the person’s skin. Name calling or insulting is unpleasant whenever, but if the n.... word, or white honkey, or other names are used, they are racist. Name calling or insulting a person on the basis of their colour is racist. Always!

Smileless2012

Well if that's right Summerlove then they're making one hell of an assumption aren't they, on something that may or may not happen, and using it to accuse the RF of being racist.

I simply cannot understand how anyone can defend them.

From what’s been shared? Maybe.

We don’t know, do we?

Charles has talked for years about slimming down the monarchy. I’m sure Harry never envisioned that would mean him.

I’m sure Harry expected the Queen to make an exception and give his son a title.

Now, if Charles slims down the roles, as has been put out, people with short memories will say it’s racism.

Others will say “who knows”

The third group will say “absolutely not”.

The truth is, we will never know.

I do think many people would have claimed it was due to archies race no matter what Harry and Meghan said.

Do I think they should have put it out there? Likely not.

But I don’t live in their shoes.

*That’s not how I took it, they said if he was denied a prince title once Charles was king it could be due to racism
They absolutely did acknowledge that they understood he wasn’t due that title at birth.*

Summerlove Even if your interpretation is correct that's one hell of a stretch. They don't possess a crystal ball anymore than the rest of us and cannot see the future. However...as Prince Charles has said he wants to slim down the monarchy, should he become King he could choose not to bestow the title of Prince on Archie - but to say that's because of racism is a hideous leap too far. Particularly as his intention to slim down the monarchy has been in the open since before MM was even on the scene.

IMO if you wish to have an honest conversation either in private or on a national level on any subject the worse thing you can do is to immediately go on the attack, and that's what H&M have done.

They've attacked the RF by saying they are racist with no apparent desire for any self reflection of their own. Perhaps they honestly believe that the best form of defence is attack, but as time goes on, there appear to be more and more messages of support for the RF than there are for H&M.

Attempting to demonise the RF on the subject of racism looks to me like an own goal.

maddyone

But it is racist NellG as I explained somewhere, maybe another thread, not sure. And you conceded I believe. The reason it is racist is because it is only ever used in a derogatory manner ie name calling or insulting. It becomes racist because of the use of the description of the colour of the person’s skin. Name calling or insulting is unpleasant whenever, but if the n.... word, or white honkey, or other names are used, they are racist. Name calling or insulting a person on the basis of their colour is racist. Always!

Not in the context of white privilege though maddyone. It's a well accepted academic term and not a slur.

I felt sorry for William and Kate being questioned about being racist when they were on an engagement.

Also, I feel because the "unfortunate statement" was not specific, it has caused a lot of arguments and bad feeling yet without actual fact of the words that were actually said, there is no point arguing.

I would go further to say that making such an allegation without specifics is especially damaging to the RF when it was probably one person and could have been on the fringes even....I even think it was not the done thing to make it public when it had not been addressed in private.

Personally if someone did make damaging comments to me about race and I was in their shoes, I feel it would be best to keep completely quiet and save the whole thing for court

Summerlove Sorry, crossed posts!

So what are you suggesting Summerlove? Charles has made no secret of his desire to slim down the monarchy, will he be able to do so when it comes to Archie without being called a racist?

Or will he have to go down the route of positive discrimination, giving Archie the title of Prince at the expense of others?

Talk about setting someone up for a fall.

maddyone For reference :

www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

Not ashamed to say, I’m finding the comments here very thought- provoking, and helpful

On this ‘white privilege’ argument does it also apply to ‘male privilege’? And ‘heterosexual privelege’?

And as a black lesbian (her description) is my friend doing herself a disservice by NOT using those arguments in each and every very debate we have?

I just wish they would have kept their private life private.

The comment made about race was as ambiguous as possible and divisive, as I suspect it was designed to be.

As racsism and bullying are legal issues, both should have been dealt with legally, not used on a tv show to create drama and division that serves no one well.

Pantglas2

On this ‘white privilege’ argument does it also apply to ‘male privilege’? And ‘heterosexual privelege’?

And as a black lesbian (her description) is my friend doing herself a disservice by NOT using those arguments in each and every very debate we have?

In what way Pantglas? As in we should recognise and be aware of all privilege? In which case yes, we should if we want be decent and respectful human beings.

In the case of your friend, only if she feels she can't use those arguments. There's no disservice if she feels that they don't apply to the issues you're discussing.

She actually persuades me of her arguments on logic and facts Nell and has never once turned to her colour or sexuality and when she tackles DH never uses gender against him.

An example to behold IMO.

Pantglas2 She sounds like a brilliant friend, and clearly has never felt the need to tackle you on those grounds, so kudos to you all for staying out of the mire.

DH and I were talking about male privilege in the respect of the current news stories re women's safety. Having a discussion about it didn't mean battering him over the head with accusations of male privilege, but it did involve using the term and illustrating in what ways he possess it and I don't. We both learnt a lot form the conversation and neither came out feeling got at or marginalised.

I think these terms are like most things, it depends how you use them and what your intention is. Unfortunately those with weak arguments have almost weaponised them and they've become accusations instead of descriptions and often shut down conversation instead of enhancing it.

My intention in using the word privilege, what ever the prefix, is to have a conversation wherein we recognise our own biases and how they may adversely affect other people. It's certainly not about pointing a finger and pretending I am any better than anyone else. In fact, I am often the worst culprit. Is there harm in that?

Totally agree Nell! I grew up with three brothers and have always accepted a difference between them and me and how my parents treated us.

My dad once told me he didn’t love me more as the only girl but he did love me differently! I think he meant protectively in a lot of respects but I overheard him telling his friend that I was the strongest of all his children and the one he worried about the least!

I’ve never felt the need to allege male privilege although I did once tell my husband and daughter that they’d both benefited from ‘first born’ privilege on account that they thought that their opinions had more value because they were the oldest!

The privilege argument is such a difficult vehicle to steer don’t you think? I keep getting lost on the B roads!

A serious subject has been raised and needs to be dealt with....
A spade is for digging and a shovel is for shovelling, (anything you like) in other words moving stuff from a to b on it and anyway, is a different shape.A shovel can have a short or a long handle.

OnwardandUpward

I felt sorry for William and Kate being questioned about being racist when they were on an engagement.

Also, I feel because the "unfortunate statement" was not specific, it has caused a lot of arguments and bad feeling yet without actual fact of the words that were actually said, there is no point arguing.

I would go further to say that making such an allegation without specifics is especially damaging to the RF when it was probably one person and could have been on the fringes even....I even think it was not the done thing to make it public when it had not been addressed in private.

Personally if someone did make damaging comments to me about race and I was in their shoes, I feel it would be best to keep completely quiet and *save the whole thing for court*

Amen to that?

Pantglas If you come across a baffled looking scruffy woman coming in the opposite direction give me a wave and I wont feel quite so lost on the B roads myself!

Lucca
Oh she’s a thief now!

Nice try but rather desperate.

I understood P.H saying when Archie was born that they didn't want a title for him as they wanted him to grow up as normally as possible like his cousins. I guess they've changed their minds, I wonder why?! Surely if someone voices genuine concerns as to how the tabloids and some vile trolls will in all probability make dreadful and cruel comments about your family as they did and still do, with Catherine and Camilla , it can't be racist to voice these concerns? A genuine warning of what in reality may happen must be acceptable and not be regarded as a slur?

The thing is Jaberwok we can't possibly know if it was just the expression of concern for the experience of a future child, or a blatantly racist question, because Harry wouldn't reveal either the source or the content. I'd like to believe it was out of concern, but I can't know that and unless those involved make it public, which they wont, none of us will ever know.

So, in the absence of any qualifying information we have to accept that it was racist, because the people who shared it don't want the world to see it any other way.

I do not have to accept it was racist.

But Annie you think I'm racist for calling people white! If there was a conversation about skin colour what else could it be?

The thing is, things that can be said that "make good tv" aren't usually beneficial to a family's unity, peace and love.

The power of suggestion can be powerful, but what was said is a suggestion rather than a concrete fact. If they came out and said who it was and what actually happened I would feel differently,