Proposed vigil for Sarah Everard, your views?

3nanny6

Suziewoozie You are correct a few extra street lights and some CCTV cameras is not really going to cut it. The government needs to implement more effective social policies. I still take the view that the "Vigil" was hijacked by others that had political agenda and were indeed there to cause trouble.

I just want to add that I viewed a program on TV today it was about how M.Ps want to see more done to help the case of young girls and women on the streets. The council in one borough somewhere up North are going to close a mans club and lap dancing facility in the club. On the program
they had one of the lap dancers who looked like an everyday young woman. The woman talked how she does stripping and lap dancing and she said it suits her lifestyle and pays well. Personally for me I am aware that up and down the country these establishments exist and for women to work within that industry they do it by choice, in fact the woman said it is her choice and her body and she does not like to be told by other women perhaps she should change her career.
The woman also said that she thought it makes it safer on the streets for other women as a man can find some release for his frustrations in these places. I understand what she is saying and it is her body but I would disagree that it makes things safer for other women and most certainly that men just go to these places where the womens body is objectified and the man feels alright to pay for that. Our society has along way to go to help educate certain women that they can earn money in other ways rather than strip their clothes off for men.

I listened to a discussion last night about strip clubs - two women provided two different perspectives. One was a young woman in London paying her way through Law School earning good money in a high end strip club. The other was an older woman, working in a seedy joint in a Northern city who did it initially because it had fitted in with child care and paid more than other limited alternatives. She was now trying to save money to make a new life for herself. She said the clientele were handsy and allowed to be. Like you ,
I don’t accept the argument that going to such places makes the streets safer. I think it encourages men to see women as commodities with their bodies up for sale. If any man in my circle of friends ever told me he visited sex clubs , he’d no longer be a friend of mine.

Suziewoozie You are correct a few extra street lights and some CCTV cameras is not really going to cut it. The government needs to implement more effective social policies. I still take the view that the "Vigil" was hijacked by others that had political agenda and were indeed there to cause trouble.

I just want to add that I viewed a program on TV today it was about how M.Ps want to see more done to help the case of young girls and women on the streets. The council in one borough somewhere up North are going to close a mans club and lap dancing facility in the club. On the program
they had one of the lap dancers who looked like an everyday young woman. The woman talked how she does stripping and lap dancing and she said it suits her lifestyle and pays well. Personally for me I am aware that up and down the country these establishments exist and for women to work within that industry they do it by choice, in fact the woman said it is her choice and her body and she does not like to be told by other women perhaps she should change her career.
The woman also said that she thought it makes it safer on the streets for other women as a man can find some release for his frustrations in these places. I understand what she is saying and it is her body but I would disagree that it makes things safer for other women and most certainly that men just go to these places where the womens body is objectified and the man feels alright to pay for that. Our society has along way to go to help educate certain women that they can earn money in other ways rather than strip their clothes off for men.

foxie48

suziewoozie, nowhere have I prioritised one over the other. I was answering the question posed at the end of your post "If we had fuller pictures of the backgrounds of men who escalate towards physical violence towards women, I wonder what we’d see?"
With regard to the sexual activities of men aimed at women that you describe, I haven't and wouldn't defend them and agree it's a form of violence. At no point am I defending any violence towards women by men (or by anyone else for that matter).

I get that absolutely - I thought you were differentiating between ‘sexual’ type violence and ‘other’ violence. But are we agreeing that it’s all violence and on the same spectrum just in different places? Rape is nothing to do with sex is it and everything to do with violence.

Surely the common theme is that they are committed by men (or have I missed something)

Well there are exceptions to that. Just as there are exceptions to women being physiologically more vulnerable. My comment on common themes though was specifically related to a previous post about motives for crimes. My point being that the motives for crimes might be different but reasons behindvpickung victims maybe less so

We clearly agree on the key point that the culture and practice needs to change.

suziewoozie, nowhere have I prioritised one over the other. I was answering the question posed at the end of your post "If we had fuller pictures of the backgrounds of men who escalate towards physical violence towards women, I wonder what we’d see?"
With regard to the sexual activities of men aimed at women that you describe, I haven't and wouldn't defend them and agree it's a form of violence. At no point am I defending any violence towards women by men (or by anyone else for that matter).

I read this article by a mother who is living through the same nightmare. Her daughter was murdered in 2008.

"Now it has all escalated into a media frenzy more representative of individual anger than of shared grief.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56414694

Iam64

Exactly PippaZ. We need a government that implements effective social policies, rather than slashing and burning public services

A few extra street lights and CCTV cameras is not really going to cut it is it?

Exactly PippaZ. We need a government that implements effective social policies, rather than slashing and burning public services

Even when causes and motives for specific crimes (eg sexual predation as opposed to theft), the common theme across both when done to women is that a woman is more often a "soft target" ...as in less likely to be able to physically defend themselves, more easily overpowered etc.

Surely the common theme is that they are committed by men (or have I missed something) against both women and men. In a sense, and also in practice, women can do little until both the culture and practice for men changes and that needs a change clarifying "what really matters", and a change in habitual practice and back up for both of these. To be honest, I don't see those in leadership roles in our government leading such a change and therein may well lie our problem.

foxie48

I suspect you would see some very unhappy men, with very low self esteem who have had very poor parenting. However, that opinion would not go down well with some women. I'm friends with a criminal defence barrister who is frequently in the business of uncovering mitigating circumstances for men, often young men who have committed some extremely unpleasant crimes. It's not just tough work emotionally dealing with the crimes, it's frequently harder learning about the home circumstances of some of these offenders. I am not excusing violent deviant behaviour, offenders have to be punished according to the law but I will challenge anyone who says that violence towards women is a men's problem. It's a problem for all us us and it is extremely complex. Apart from the easy access to drugs on our streets, poor access to treatment for mental health etc etc I have a huge worry about the ready availability of hard core pornography and the effect that that is having on boy's.

And what about the lives of girls and women ruined by men? Even ‘low level’ behaviour?

Sorry ...typo or accidental deletion ...."...causes and motivations for specific crimes ...*are different*"

The issue of all types of violence against women and the lack off serious political will to tackle it has been around for decades if not longer

I agree with this suziewoozie

Even when causes and motives for specific crimes (eg sexual predation as opposed to theft), the common theme across both when done to women is that a woman is more often a "soft target" ...as in less likely to be able to physically defend themselves, more easily overpowered etc. Physiologically that is accepted (yes, there are exceptions but an attacker won't know that in advance and will make assumptions based on that general acceptance)

As an accepted physiological fact known for centuries, it is clear that there has been little political will to really act on that, look at the implications of that for policy, planning, law making, policing, the things needed to stop that being taken advantage of by men who are so inclined, whatever the motivations for their crime.

I suspect you would see some very unhappy men, with very low self esteem who have had very poor parenting. However, that opinion would not go down well with some women. I'm friends with a criminal defence barrister who is frequently in the business of uncovering mitigating circumstances for men, often young men who have committed some extremely unpleasant crimes. It's not just tough work emotionally dealing with the crimes, it's frequently harder learning about the home circumstances of some of these offenders. I am not excusing violent deviant behaviour, offenders have to be punished according to the law but I will challenge anyone who says that violence towards women is a men's problem. It's a problem for all us us and it is extremely complex. Apart from the easy access to drugs on our streets, poor access to treatment for mental health etc etc I have a huge worry about the ready availability of hard core pornography and the effect that that is having on boy's.

I’d also add that cat calling, upskirting, rubbing up in tube trains, etc are all example of violence towards women

foxie48

suziewoozie

It seems to me that some posters really don’t ‘get’ the big picture here. The issue of all types of violence against women and the lack off serious political will to tackle it has been around for decades if not longer. Not choosing to make this a serious priority was a political choice - the reaction to Sarah’s death was not politicised - it was the lack of political action preceding it that politicised it. It’s very sad that it’s taken this awful death to force some action and to allow women to share the experiences they’ve endured over the years of abuse, harassment, violence so much of which went unreported or if reported was not taken seriously. There was no way that once this story broke, the reaction to it could have been put on hold. It just doesn’t work like that. The most important thing that can be done now for the family is that the media treat them with respect and we don’t have a replay of how Millie Dowler’s family were treated.

I wonder if rather than not seeing "the big picture" other posters just see a different "big picture"? In your post you talk about all types of violence to woman as if they have one cause and they don't. I don't see that it's helpful for example to conflate the violent robbery of woman with sexual predation. The causes and the motives for both are very different and likely to need completely different action.
eg friend was punched so hard she fell down the stairs at Clapham Tube station, guy arrested when her handbag was found with 11 others in a flat following a drugs raid. A very pregnant friend withdrew cash from machine in the centre of B'ham on a late afternoon in winter, she was attacked and had her bag stolen. Two years later she was with a client at the law courts and saw him. He was a serial offender. The motive for both of these attacks was robbery and the victim was chosen because they were seen as a "soft" target, certainly my pregnant friend thought this was the case.
Sexual predation is a completely different sort of offence and has a completely different motive. There's a lot of very thought provoking research that links sexually abusive behaviour with the abuse and neglect of children, often by parents in their own home, not always the male partner either! And yes, I do think the very sad death of Sarah has been politicised but that doesn't mean I am not looking at the big picture, I just have a different opinion.

I think this is an interesting point you raise. It’s complicated yes. However, I was listening yesterday to a woman ( former crime analyst at New Scotland Yard ) and she has worked for 20 years analysing patterns of male behaviour and what it tells us. She says that stalking behaviour left unaddressed escalates into much more violent behaviour and is too frequently dismissed as low level crime. She often predicted correctly violent outcomes but was ignored.
We also know that much sexual behaviour towards women goes unreported and unrecorded. If we had fuller pictures of the backgrounds of men who escalate towards physical violence towards women, I wonder what we’d see?

suziewoozie

It seems to me that some posters really don’t ‘get’ the big picture here. The issue of all types of violence against women and the lack off serious political will to tackle it has been around for decades if not longer. Not choosing to make this a serious priority was a political choice - the reaction to Sarah’s death was not politicised - it was the lack of political action preceding it that politicised it. It’s very sad that it’s taken this awful death to force some action and to allow women to share the experiences they’ve endured over the years of abuse, harassment, violence so much of which went unreported or if reported was not taken seriously. There was no way that once this story broke, the reaction to it could have been put on hold. It just doesn’t work like that. The most important thing that can be done now for the family is that the media treat them with respect and we don’t have a replay of how Millie Dowler’s family were treated.

I wonder if rather than not seeing "the big picture" other posters just see a different "big picture"? In your post you talk about all types of violence to woman as if they have one cause and they don't. I don't see that it's helpful for example to conflate the violent robbery of woman with sexual predation. The causes and the motives for both are very different and likely to need completely different action.
eg friend was punched so hard she fell down the stairs at Clapham Tube station, guy arrested when her handbag was found with 11 others in a flat following a drugs raid. A very pregnant friend withdrew cash from machine in the centre of B'ham on a late afternoon in winter, she was attacked and had her bag stolen. Two years later she was with a client at the law courts and saw him. He was a serial offender. The motive for both of these attacks was robbery and the victim was chosen because they were seen as a "soft" target, certainly my pregnant friend thought this was the case.
Sexual predation is a completely different sort of offence and has a completely different motive. There's a lot of very thought provoking research that links sexually abusive behaviour with the abuse and neglect of children, often by parents in their own home, not always the male partner either! And yes, I do think the very sad death of Sarah has been politicised but that doesn't mean I am not looking at the big picture, I just have a different opinion.

The best thing that has come out of this thread for me is Baggs quote.

The police could have turned up with flowers and moved everyone on after they had laid them.

Instead they used force The Force turned up in force and used force.

We want flowers not force.

It seems to me that some posters really don’t ‘get’ the big picture here. The issue of all types of violence against women and the lack off serious political will to tackle it has been around for decades if not longer. Not choosing to make this a serious priority was a political choice - the reaction to Sarah’s death was not politicised - it was the lack of political action preceding it that politicised it. It’s very sad that it’s taken this awful death to force some action and to allow women to share the experiences they’ve endured over the years of abuse, harassment, violence so much of which went unreported or if reported was not taken seriously. There was no way that once this story broke, the reaction to it could have been put on hold. It just doesn’t work like that. The most important thing that can be done now for the family is that the media treat them with respect and we don’t have a replay of how Millie Dowler’s family were treated.

Quite right, wellbeck. It was very badly handled indeed.

i think if there had been no police present, this event would have been reported in a couple of paragraphs, along with other similar events in other cities.
there would have been nothing further of note to report.

Politicised by the actions of the police. They could have stood by and watched. There is a precedent after all.
Not many days ago the police were complaining they were being put at risk because they had to get close to people to arrest them. Surely this was a case for "keeping their distance" - the women would have gone home eventually.

It's no wonder women don't feel safe. I remember a time when we were taught to trust a policeman. Not now.

I agree with you hollysteers and I feel for the young woman's family. They should be left to grieve in peace. It is a tragic event that has been politised.

IT is quite clear by some of the views expressed that this was not about Sarah, but political, to put police under pressure, to agitate, to compare our police and country with Hong Kong is ridiculous, they hijacked the tragic murder of Sarah for more sinister reasons, so shame on them. These people don't speak for me the mother of both men and women, the grandmother of boys and girls. I do hope Cressida does not resign, can you imagine what would have happened if no police were present, the government and the law are not supporting the police as they should. Boris get a grip and speak up.

GrannyRose15

The actions of the Metropolitan police yesterday were totally unacceptable.

Whatever were policeMEN thinking as they arrested WOMEN who were holding a vigil for a WOMAN who had been murdered, allegedly by a policeMAN?

This could have been handled so much better.

How are women supposed to feel safe when the ones who are charged with keeping them safe behave like this?

While I agree there were mistakes and misjudgements made by the powers that be perhaps with your benefit of hindsight you could enlighten us as to exactly how the whole thing should have been managed. The early part of the day could most certainly be considered a vigil, and the police did not get involved. People came, laid flowers, contemplated and left. The latter part of the day seemed to be more problematic? Were the speakers really that concentrated on Sarah and her family? Was the vigil the quiet, contemplative mark of respect to a dead woman, or had it morphed into a totally illegal protest about other issues? Were any present determined to provoke dissent? Was Sarah's grotesque end hijacked for other purposes? How do Sarah's family and friends feel about the developments, and does anybody care? There are definitely more questions than answers.