Proposed vigil for Sarah Everard, your views?

Kamiso

foxie48

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?

You must have some awful men in your life.

many men ????

Not all men are potential rapists. Most I know are as appalled by this crime as I am.

Kamiso, you and me, like so many other women are fortunate to have kind, gentle, loving men and boys in our families and friendship circle.
Recognising though, that foxie48 is correct in saying ‘many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts, including rape’ is not saying that all men are potential rapists. Those of us who have worked with sex offenders, domestic and all forms of violence will have the experience that confirms foxie’s comment. And before anyone reminds me, yes I’m aware women can commit similar offences. That doesn’t deny the evidence that men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators, women and children, the victims

Kamiso

foxie48

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?

You must have some awful men in your life.

many men ????

Not all men are potential rapists. Most I know are as appalled by this crime as I am.

Whoops, you missed it was a reply to Suziewoozie and have taken it completely out of context. Never mind, easily done! For the record, the men in my life are lovely, completely harmless and have their sexuality well under control they are as appalled at violence towards women as I am.

I just wish that all children from an early age, learnt by example what is acceptable and what isn’t and know if they are not, their parent are then ones to go to. This behaviour needs dealing with and not treated as if the victim was at fault male or female, let them know that porn is a no no and degrades both sexes.

foxie48

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?

You must have some awful men in your life.

many men ????

Not all men are potential rapists. Most I know are as appalled by this crime as I am.

I just think it’s a rather knee jerk silly reaction which is completely tone deaf as to the real issues.

Yup agree again Suziewoozie. Why plain clothes? With eyes in the back of their head and everywhere else to actually notice something been done to a woman in some bar that they just happen to be in at the right moment...and then ofcourse able to step in, apprehend the offender,and "save" this random woman who doesn't know who they are because they are in plain clothes!

Daft indeed! . Complete and utter political grandstanding!

I’ve just read how 200 people paid their respects to Sarah and her family gathering but maintaining a social distance in front of the Royal Crescent in Bath last weekend. It was all about Sarah. Not hijacked by political groups with their own agendas.
A very moving piece has been written by Bea whose daughter Moira was raped and murdered in a park in Glasgow 13 years ago describing how much support the family need. You can read it on the BBC website.

suziewoozie

You're probably right.

GrannyRose15

I was disturbed to read this morning that the police are thinking of putting undercover police outside pubs, clubs etc to deal with harassment of women. Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
What we need, and have needed for a long time is a visible presence on our streets. And to know that if we shout there is someone who will come to our aid - preferably someone in uniform with truncheon.

I just think it’s a rather knee jerk silly reaction which is completely tone deaf as to the real issues.

I was disturbed to read this morning that the police are thinking of putting undercover police outside pubs, clubs etc to deal with harassment of women. Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
What we need, and have needed for a long time is a visible presence on our streets. And to know that if we shout there is someone who will come to our aid - preferably someone in uniform with truncheon.

Yes it is still rape Rosie. Just because man has been aroused, doesn't mean he has to do anything about it.

A few years ago, there was an American Congressman who argued that a woman would never get pregnant as a result of a legitimate rape as the woman’s body had a way of shutting down whilst being raped to prevent impregnation. This was only about 8 years ago. <sob>

I was a juror in a rape trial 30 years ago where victim and 3 men were all drunk and on drugs. She agreed to sex then changed her mind. We found the men not guilty.
This wouldn’t happen now, which I think quite right but society is fluid and justice should keep up with changes.

NellG definitely agreeing more than disagreeing.

Smileless What the victim of a sexual offence was wearing or how she was behaving should never be an issue, and we do better to keep banging that drum until we're heard. FGS if a woman consents to sex, then changes her mind it's still rape. Male sex drive may be strong but it's not unstoppable and we infantilise men if we say they can't control their urges.

I don't think you're wrong at all Rosie51, in fact is is exactly that thinking that someone else's body is available to you that makes the sexual side of it a contemptuous act - an 'I can do what I want when I want because I have the power and control' . So I think we're agreeing really? If we don't even have control over our own bodies, what do we have? So it's sex used violently not because of attraction, but cruelty.

There are still sadly a huge number of myths that are bought into by investigators, prosecutors and juries.

Yes that's right Nell it has been accepted for sometime that the act of rape is first and foremost about exercising power and control.

I agree suziewoozie that focusing first and foremost on the sexual act can bring an unnecessary focus on what the victim was wearing, behaviour etc. By seeing it as being driven by the perpetrators need to exercise power and control then a claim that 'she was asking for it' quite rightly becomes questionable along with what she was wearing and how she was behaving etc.

Actually I think it downplays the violence and overstates the sex. As Nell says there’s issues about power and control. If it’s seen as a sexual act then we can focus on what knickers she wore, how short her skirt was ie asking for it.

NellG

Not really Rosie51 the understanding is that all such acts, whether sexual in nature or not are acts of power and control first and foremost. If they weren't the man in question, who rapes his wife or partner, would suppress his sexual urge and respect her wishes.

Yes, I can get that rape in those circumstances demonstrates control and power, but to me it's still motivated by sex. It's probably me but I always hear the power not sex thing as downplaying the vile sexual nature of thinking someone's body is available for your gratification. I'll accept I'm probably wrong by today's thinking. I'm not sure as a victim I'd be worried about the classification.

foxie48

Suziewoozie, I honestly don't know but I'm also not sure if I was the woman being raped that it would make much difference to how I felt. I'd still be traumatised. Sorry not prepared to play semantics with you. Just let's agree to differ, which is actually where I came into this discussion. I have a different "big picture".

I’m not trying to play semantics. Of course to the woman it’s rape but seeing it as it might be as a man overexcited sheds a very different light compared to seeing it as violence

Not really Rosie51 the understanding is that all such acts, whether sexual in nature or not are acts of power and control first and foremost. If they weren't the man in question, who rapes his wife or partner, would suppress his sexual urge and respect her wishes.

The difference matters in terms of how we view rape. As sex with violence or violence with sex.

Suziewoozie, I honestly don't know but I'm also not sure if I was the woman being raped that it would make much difference to how I felt. I'd still be traumatised. Sorry not prepared to play semantics with you. Just let's agree to differ, which is actually where I came into this discussion. I have a different "big picture".

suziewoozie

foxie48

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?

My understanding is that these days rape is seen as an act of physical violence carried out sexually and not a sex act carried out violently. That’s an important difference I think

I can't imagine it makes much difference to some women who have been violated. Isn't it likely that different rapes are perpetuated for different reasons? The man who rapes his wife or girlfriend because she said "not now" is surely starting from a sexually aroused base, meaning it's a sexual act first, achieved by violence.

foxie48

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?

My understanding is that these days rape is seen as an act of physical violence carried out sexually and not a sex act carried out violently. That’s an important difference I think

Well it's certainly all violence. I'm not able to tell you if it's sexual or not though as only the perpetrator knows why they commit an act of violence on a woman and what they get from it, however, I suspect many men will derive sexual pleasure from certain violent acts including rape, does that make it sexual? Rape etc is described as sexual assault but I'm no expert on the matter. TBH I'm not sure it's about "place" though, where has that come from?