Putting my head about the parapet

Shelflife

Parents choice , they decide what is right for their family. Staying at home with children is a personal choice. Lots to weigh up - nursery fees in particular!!!!?

No it really is not that simple.The point is not everyone has a meaningful choice.

It is a spiral. Maternity leave used to be patchy and short, and your job wasn't kept for you to return to.. Then mortgage firms started lending on two salaries instead of just one - that was at the same time as the pill became the most dependable choice for contraception, and the lenders did it because they were not so likely to have women defaulting on payment because they had become pregnant and left their jobs. Maternity leave was better organised, and women could go back to the job that was helping pay the mortgage. Because more couples could afford them, house prices rose to meet the affordable limit, so more women went back to work after their babies were born so as to keep up. On the spiral, house prices continued to rise as double incomes made it possible to buy a better house. And so on.

The ones left behind were the low earners who couldn't have got a mortgage in the first place, but still had a family to raise! They are the ones who have no choice.

Some women themselves these days want to do more with their lives. They've worked hard to get to where they are in their jobs. They've studied hard and gained different perspectives on life. For some, and I emphasise some, childcare is boring. (I can hear screaming from some of you!)
Life has changed. Its now normal for mothers not to stay at home with their children. Once they go to school there's not nearly enough to fill the day. (Is that more screaming?)

I intended to go back to my work after my maternity leave thirty four years ago. I decided I wasn’t prepared to work full time to pay a nursery. It was difficult financially because my then husband wasn’t on great pay. But we managed ok until the interest rate shot up so I had to get a part time job. I was thrifty in the house had no holidays and didn’t expect new this or that etc.
My family made their own decisions when they started having children. Both my DIL and DD had very good jobs and chose to be stay at home mums. My DS and my SIL worried initially about the responsibility of the finances but they are both professional and are on good salaries. If their incomes were not so good my DIL and DD wouldn’t have the choice to stay at home.
Income does play a big part in decisions being made by most people. There are of course people on extremely low pay who rely on family credit etc to top up wages. It shouldn’t be necessary but it’s another reason people have to consider making lifestyle choices.
Attitudes also influence decisions people make as expectations seem to be higher. Consumerism encouraged by credit cards and loans so easily available unlike years ago. It’s for holidays cars etc things they couldn’t usually afford its living on the never never.
It’s a good question you ask I think it’s because it’s not encouraged these days no matter what party presides in government. There is no consideration for the family as a unit it is now all about the individual in this materialist world we live in. It’s all interpretation isn’t it how we see things based on our own experience.

Galaxy

But why would you campaign for that just for women. Young women tend to be out performing men in university and in early stages of career, why would you not campaign for the lower earner to stay at home which in lots of cases would be men. I changed from management to part time work when my children were young, I dont think you can underestimate the impact on the person who takes that 'hit'.

But Galaxy The OP is aware of the men who could stay at home (and do) She says "Of course I am aware that some men would like to stay at home and their wives/partners would like to work. That is their choice too but the same applies. "

But the whole conversation has been about stay at home mums and all examples given have been women who gave up their career. The focus is always on women in these discussions.

Our daughter returned to work full time when our GD was 9 months old.
The nursery fees were just under 15 K a year with an extra sun cream application charge from March until September.
There were heavy fines if you were late to collect and 8.15 was the drop off.
She lived in Brighton at the time and the parking in town would have cost an arm and a leg so my daughter had to rely on the bus, despite outrageous parking charges the council didn’t subsidise the bus service so that was an extra £6 a day.
The stress was unbelievable.
She didn’t receive any family allowance as they were over the threshold.
When she got home at 5.45 with only a few minutes before baby bath and bedtime she was just feeling miserable.

She is now a stay at home Mum with 2 children, they have moved to Cheshire as the commute from Crewe to London is as easy as from Brighton, my daughter has ditched any ideas of working for somebody else, she has realised that with a partner who works very long hours and can rarely help and no family nearby it is just not worth the stress.

Aveline

Some women themselves these days want to do more with their lives. They've worked hard to get to where they are in their jobs. They've studied hard and gained different perspectives on life. For some, and I emphasise some, childcare is boring. (I can hear screaming from some of you!)
Life has changed. Its now normal for mothers not to stay at home with their children. Once they go to school there's not nearly enough to fill the day. (Is that more screaming?)

Not from me it isn’t . That’s why I know it’s not about money in all cases at all but about personal satisfaction and fulfilment as well. Although I know not everyone is in that situation.

I do think housing costs are at the core, and part of that was more women coming into work and earning enough to make a significant contribution to family incomes.

Pressure was brought on building societies to take a second income into account when granting mortgages. If lots more people can borrow more then it puts pressure on the housing market and that drives prices up, so gradually a second income becomes essential if you want to be able to buy a house, which in turn means women have to stay in work when they would rather not.

shelflife Parents choice , they decide what is right for their family. Staying at home with children is a personal choice. This is a lovely idea but unfortunately untrue. Most women have to go back to work because they are earning half the family income and without it, they will not be able to afford the rent or mortgage payment. They then have all the problems of child care.

It is always the problem, as we seek a juster and fairer society women threw off their chains and took their place in society as equals, with all the freedom to get education, better paid work and lifetime careers. We didn't really think about the downside. Or rather we could not foresee the downsides, because we could only predicate them on the basis of our existing experience.

One of those downsides is that women with children have to work because their income is essential to keeping a roof over the family and bread on their plates.

The vast majority of mothers now have to put their children in day care in order to earn a living. The exact reverse of the days when women had to stay at home to look after children. At the end of the day it is the women (and children) that are the losers.

I bet there are thousands of women whose preferences would be to stay at home and look after the children !

Thousands of men, too.

We need a radically new approach to work/life balance. So many jobs these days are there just so that company shareholders can increase their profits, they don’t have any actual benefit to the country or humanity in general.

I'm not saying that men shouldn't stay at home if that's how the couple want to work it. I just wonder when/why being a parent at home became so undervalued. I have two DDs. I works full time whilst bringing up 3 children with the help of her (self employed husband) and her sister. She is deemed to be successful. The other is a 'stay at home mother'. She helps her working sister by doing the school pick up/drop offs etc when necessary. Both have very happy, well adjusted children but the stay at home daughter isn't deemed as successful as her sister because she is 'only' a mother.

I agree with M0nica and Elegran the cost of housing is prohibitive.
We bought a house back in the day when they cost under £5000. Imagine that. We could have bought a croft in the Scottish Highlands for a few £100 and I know people who did..
My DC have hefty mortgages or can't afford a house at all.
My DS has had to keep a job even when hating it.

But I hope there is and will be more flexible working hours. When I worked outside the home I remember the stress when the teachers went on strike and my female, childless boss had no sympathy whatsoever for my concern about where the DC would go!
The safety net of a basic income sounds like a good idea but it wouldn't help our families whose monthly bills are very high.

Yes Vampire my determined to bring up her own children DD feels undervalued sometimes. But I don't undervalue her!

It is mainly to the cost of housing. A person would have to be on an extremely high salary to be able to manage a mortgage, or to pay the level of rent that is now normal. No matter what expectations anyone has, the level of income needed just to house a family is too high. It is all very well us oldies congratulating ourselves on how well we managed our money, our rents or mortgages were nowhere near today's prices.
But another consideration is that if a man has been the sole earner and he then decides to leave his family, the mother has to start from scratch in the world of paid employment, spousal maintenance does not really happen any more.

Children go to school at 5. They're not in costly 'daycare' for very long. All sorts of arrangements are possible so they don't automatically cost a fortune. As we all know, grandparents are often happy to help. If mums want to work as opposed to having to work then why not? Not every family wants expensive foreign holidays and extra cars. For some mums their mental health is at risk if staying at home.

Aveline

Children go to school at 5. They're not in costly 'daycare' for very long. All sorts of arrangements are possible so they don't automatically cost a fortune. As we all know, grandparents are often happy to help. If mums want to work as opposed to having to work then why not? Not every family wants expensive foreign holidays and extra cars. For some mums their mental health is at risk if staying at home.

Yes this - and that’s also why I made the point about the importance of part time/ flexible working and family friendly policies.

It is a very hard job staying at home and looking after children. These days I think there is a tendency to look down on those mums and that was never the case years ago. In fact it was more the other way round. When I went back to work it was actually a relief, much easier. I was lucky because I was able to work part time until my children were old enough to manage on their own after school for a couple of hours
but not everyone has that available to them.

One of my daughters has "given up" a well paid professional job to stay at home with her daughter.
They moved to an area where the houses were cheap so they could manage the mortgage on one income inspite of being offered a massive mortgage to buy somewhere twice the price.

She has a second hand fridge, freezer, washer and furniture and although they have spent money on a new bath and on rewiring the house it is still pretty ordinary and pretty much as they bought it.

In the next couple of years they are hoping they will both work part time. The biggest thing for her is that all her peers are back at work and babies in daycare. This makes finding her little "tribe" really awkward and this has bern made worse in the pandemic.

I think the choices she and her husband made are not popular these days. I feel sorry for her to be honest as she doesn't have a strong network of other stay-at-home parents as I did, and has been unable to socialise.

It is, as others have said, normal for mums to give their tiny people to others these days. Given my strong belief in Early Years and it's life-long importance in the growth of a person, I find this quite sad.

I do hope the toddler groups open up soon.

Toddler groups are open in our area so you shouldn't have long to wait.

You are right Aveline I am one of those mothers who found full time child care tiresome. I was much happier with part time child care and part time employment.

I agree with Monica about the cost of housing. It is eye watering here

and I think the cancelling of stamp duty during the pandemic has made prices increase more fgs

My husband and I worked part time for many, many years so we could share the childrearing.
It wasn't easy but it was our choice.

We had little money and a big family.
We struggled financially and had lots of small money-making projects over the years, but yes we were, mostly, truly happy to have time with our children. I remember this time as hard work but full of love.
I'm not all rose-tinted-spectacles about this, but I honestly think SO many families are really missing out.

If we continue to belittle the stay-at-home parents and don't respect the work they do in raising their families, the next generations will have to be very, very, determined to do it, to go against the norm.

Thanks Galaxy, not quite here yet. ?