The National Trust - is it losing ours?

nanna8

Politics should not be a part of the NT. History, yes, politics, no. I’ll never go to one of their houses, I know that, too expensive and too many tourists for my liking. Rather go to the zoo.

But politics is often what shaped the history and creation of the big country houses. The original acquisition of land and wealth was quite dependent on supporting the right monarch/political system at the right time. (Not always, of course; sometimes it helped just to be a king's bastard )

And sometimes visiting them helps to shape one's political views. While I like to look at beautiful houses set in their beautiful gardens and landscapes (sometimes artificial ones made at great cost) and enjoy the treasures inside them, I cannot help but reflect on the fact that people who serviced the wealthy family who owned it frequently lived in poverty and squalor and were often considered to be inferior, almost sub human, beings. That the cost of just one of the hundreds of precious artefacts would have kept several 'ordinary' families in comfort.

And that it is 'politics' which has got us to where we are in terms of equality and respect for individuals. But also to reflect that (see Callistemon's 'modern slavery' post) we have a long, long way to go yet in extending that to all people.

I don't think Gertrude Bell was entirely over looked because she opposed women having the vote. I think she is just part of the hidden history of women in society. They are not remembered, their stories are not told, because men write history books and have taught history for the most part. There are hundreds of women, just forgotten and unrecognised who played significant roles in many areas. Rachel Parsons and women engineers for example.

Sorry one of those "colour skin" should have been different religion. Got builders working and it is a bit chaotic here.

Callistemon, I didn't attack anyone, I stated how I feel about what China are doing but acknowledge (each to their own) that other people are entitled to their own views. There are other countries I wouldn't visit but I know people who have visited them and people who have visited China. I don't expect everyone to approve/disapprove/like or dislike the same things as me. I'm quite grown up like that.

There are various countries round the world with govts that imprison and torture and even kill people whose only crime is to have a different point of view, a different colour skin or a different colour skin. I choose not to support them.

I'm not someone with a closed mind, I'm not the one getting worked up.

25Avalon

Theworriedwell regarding Lawrence of Arabia, I have just learned of one woman who played a substantive part in Arab affairs at the same time and was well respected by Arabs, having taken the trouble to learn all the different tribal languages, and was involved in establishing Iran when it was freed from Turkish rule. There is a photo of her between Churchill and Lawrence, all on camels. That woman was Gertrude Bell. I was fascinated by her history. Why isn’t she more widely known? Apparently the feminist movement of the 70’s blanked her because she was opposed to the suffragettes.

That's interesting, I have heard of her but don't know much about her. I was lucky enough to have a doctor in the early 70s who had done much pioneering birth control work in Arabia in the 1920s and 30s when she was a very young doctor. She was semi retired when I knew her still doing regular shifts at the family planning clinic. She was amazing, another unsung hero who must have been so important to women with little access to such help.

Theworriedwell regarding Lawrence of Arabia, I have just learned of one woman who played a substantive part in Arab affairs at the same time and was well respected by Arabs, having taken the trouble to learn all the different tribal languages, and was involved in establishing Iran when it was freed from Turkish rule. There is a photo of her between Churchill and Lawrence, all on camels. That woman was Gertrude Bell. I was fascinated by her history. Why isn’t she more widely known? Apparently the feminist movement of the 70’s blanked her because she was opposed to the suffragettes.

theworriedwell

nanna8

Algerias1 ,I’m with you on that. If you want to see costumes go to a costume museum! We went on the Great Wall in China and there were all these tacky looking people in brightly coloured costumes wandering around. I’ll bet the poor peasants who died building the thing and were buried within it didn’t look anything like them.

With what goes on in China I think there are bigger issues than people looking tacky. Personally I wouldn't be doing anything to support such a regime but each to his own.

You've had deserved support on here theworriedwell, it would be a pity if you start attacking other posters for their choices.

MawBe

trisher that is pretty rude - actually very rude- as you know absolutely nothing about my mind, open or closed, my education or my experience.
I really wanted to walk away as it is to me, unacceptable to be so rude to someone you know nothing about, but also wanted to point out that IMO it shows serious flaws in your thinking.
Children learn through different senses- visually , involving pictures, illustrations, simple explanations and also by listening to music and rhythm, repeated refrains - all sorts of things. Agreed?
I have no argument with, instance period drama which I suppose may come under the umbrella of people dressed up and re-enacting events, or relating stories in costume but that would not be my choice of how I study history. Seeing the costumes of an era is fascinating and can add adds a layer of enjoyment as well as learning - but this is not the same thing as a room stewards in a mob cap pretending to be a maid or, as happened at a NT house in Warwickshire, somebody who had clearly adapted a St Andrews undergraduate gown to make their costume - I recognised it. It was inauthentic “dressing up” for its own sake.
Children have illustrations in their books, for a very good reason . Studying History at A level and university you don’t need the pretty colourful drawings!
So to say By walking briskly in the opposite direction you just prove you have closed your mind to new ideas. Which is quite sad is demeaning, insulting, misses the point and makes assumptions you have no right to make.

MawBe multi-sensory learning is not limited to children, adults learn better with such an approach as well. It is in fact pretty rude to say that everyone who presents in costume, relates stories or re-enacts events only operates at a level suitable for school children. Some of the things I have taken part in were aimed specifically at adults and included details and original research. But apparently that isn't something which would interest you.

nanna8

Algerias1 ,I’m with you on that. If you want to see costumes go to a costume museum! We went on the Great Wall in China and there were all these tacky looking people in brightly coloured costumes wandering around. I’ll bet the poor peasants who died building the thing and were buried within it didn’t look anything like them.

With what goes on in China I think there are bigger issues than people looking tacky. Personally I wouldn't be doing anything to support such a regime but each to his own.

Does everyone at a NT property dress up all the time? Not been my experience but I haven't been for a while. If it isn't all the time can't people just accept that they like it when they don't dress up but have to either put up with people dressing up or avoid it at that time and vice versa? We are all adults and I don't think anyone's life is going to be ruined because someone who needs glasses is spoiling a costume.

Why does it have to be James V1? Why not a lady in waiting? a maid? .

And because no-one wants to dress up as the 12 year old scullery maid with dark circles under her eyes from lack of sleep and red raw hands.

They all want to be ladies and gentlemen or a character of note.

Algerias1 ,I’m with you on that. If you want to see costumes go to a costume museum! We went on the Great Wall in China and there were all these tacky looking people in brightly coloured costumes wandering around. I’ll bet the poor peasants who died building the thing and were buried within it didn’t look anything like them.

trisher

Why does it have to be James V1? Why not a lady in waiting? a maid? , .
I can fully accept that some talks aren't well done. But just as you wouldn't reject all plays because you saw a bad production of one of them condemning them all isn't exactly open minded.

But I will never be convinced that a serious discussion about art will be enhanced by someone being dressed as James VI.

Because probably, all those centuries ago, the most a maid would know about art would be how to dust the paintings.

I'm not saying that would be the case nowadays.

Again, putting modern interpretations on history.

theworriedwell you are correct and I should have said "I find these talks excrutiating".

I've seen many talks where the speaker was dressed up as a historical character. I chose James VI because I think most people on this thread are women so didn't want to pick on somebody that they have dressed up as.

If someone is an actor, recreating a person in costume and showing us what life was like for them, reading their words, being that person, maybe there's an excuse. But in the NTS property near us a lady in our age group (50+) gets all decked out in her Tudor dress, combs her 21st century hair, pops on her 21st century specs and tell us all about James V turning his face to the wall. Great story, but the dress is incongruous, anachronistic and completely unnecessary for the information being imparted.

I typed gangmasters but autocorrect changed it to gangsters.

Is it really that much different today, we havn’t had “enslaved people” in the UK for many centuries, the freedom to move and seek a better life has been available to all. The local landowner didnt own you, but if you wanted housing or work you had to toe the line, until very recently tie housing was common as well.

Were you not aware that there are many people brought to this country, possibly illegally, to work as tied employees for gangsters?
They do not have a choice to look for other work, they may have paid dearly for their passage here and have to pay back that money. They are not free.

Modern slavery in the UK can take many forms, including forced sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.

Forced labour is the most common form of slavery in the UK, fueled by a drive for cheap products and services, with little regard for the people behind them.

A growing form of slavery is trafficking into crime. In the UK, it’s fuelled by the trafficking of primarily British children, forced into ‘county lines’ drug trafficking and trafficking of Vietnamese nationals forced to work in cannabis production.
www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/slavery-uk/

trisher that is pretty rude - actually very rude- as you know absolutely nothing about my mind, open or closed, my education or my experience.
I really wanted to walk away as it is to me, unacceptable to be so rude to someone you know nothing about, but also wanted to point out that IMO it shows serious flaws in your thinking.
Children learn through different senses- visually , involving pictures, illustrations, simple explanations and also by listening to music and rhythm, repeated refrains - all sorts of things. Agreed?
I have no argument with, instance period drama which I suppose may come under the umbrella of people dressed up and re-enacting events, or relating stories in costume but that would not be my choice of how I study history. Seeing the costumes of an era is fascinating and can add adds a layer of enjoyment as well as learning - but this is not the same thing as a room stewards in a mob cap pretending to be a maid or, as happened at a NT house in Warwickshire, somebody who had clearly adapted a St Andrews undergraduate gown to make their costume - I recognised it. It was inauthentic “dressing up” for its own sake.
Children have illustrations in their books, for a very good reason . Studying History at A level and university you don’t need the pretty colourful drawings!
So to say By walking briskly in the opposite direction you just prove you have closed your mind to new ideas. Which is quite sad is demeaning, insulting, misses the point and makes assumptions you have no right to make.

Alegrias1

Sorry just have to say it - "educational" talks with the people in caricatures of historical costumes are excrutiating.

A few years ago we attended an event at Fort George where the point was that people were dressed up in authentic historical costume; the Jacobite told us all about his costume, what its meaning was etc. Learnt all about his firearms as well. The Viking told us about how they dressed - no horns, of course. If that's what you want to do, fine. But I will never be convinced that a serious discussion about art will be enhanced by someone being dressed as James VI.

In your opinion, other opinions are available and equally valid.

Galaxy

I dont think they are asking you to join in.

GrannyRose could be a volunteer at a NT property for all we know.

Why does it have to be James V1? Why not a lady in waiting? a maid? , .
I can fully accept that some talks aren't well done. But just as you wouldn't reject all plays because you saw a bad production of one of them condemning them all isn't exactly open minded.

Sorry just have to say it - "educational" talks with the people in caricatures of historical costumes are excrutiating.

A few years ago we attended an event at Fort George where the point was that people were dressed up in authentic historical costume; the Jacobite told us all about his costume, what its meaning was etc. Learnt all about his firearms as well. The Viking told us about how they dressed - no horns, of course. If that's what you want to do, fine. But I will never be convinced that a serious discussion about art will be enhanced by someone being dressed as James VI.

Oh dear! I can enjoy a nice walk in some NT grounds whilst also being aware of the history of the property, I wouldn’t want it to be hidden.
Of course slavery hasn’t gone away, it has just taken on a different form, but surely by acknowledging what has happened in the past, we can raise awareness and be a strong voice campaigning against modern day slavery.
We learn from history and indeed although people are still exploited, things have, and are improving. Still a long way to go.
Impossible to divorce life from reality IMO.

NotTooOld

MawBe

trisher

I wonder Mawbe if you would be so upset if volunteers had been asked to dress in 1940's outfits or uniforms to commemorate the end of WW2? As long as no one is forcing anyone to do this (and I think that is true for any sort of dress-up) I can't see why it should be so controversial.

Actually I would Trisher - I also resent the “Lucy Worsley School of History” which I see as patronising and dumbing down for intelligent adults.
School parties, maybe (primary) might like to see the dressing up, but I would walk briskly in the opposite direction.

Maw - entirely agree with you. Well said.

Actually I think this is so patronising- if you enjoy seeing people dressed up and re-enacting events, or relating stories in costume you are in some way just the equivalent of primary school children. Actually the reverse is true I've led walks and events which academics have attended and they have welcomed a new look at the subject presented. By walking briskly in the opposite direction you just prove you have closed your mind to new ideas. Which is quite sad.

MaizieD

^IMO spoiling a lovely walk in a beautiful garden by telling me it was built on slavery is no way to do this.^

Heaven forbid that people's pleasure should be impaired by having to face the ugliness underlying the beauty.

Some people don't want to face reality, it is inconvenient afterall. I used to work for a big police force. I was dealing with a member of the public at the front desk when he went into a rant about wanting to join and he had only been turned down because he wasn't black. I sympathised with him being turned down but told him we had six new probationary constables and they were all white, we had at least ten more at various stages of their probation, nine of them white. He got into a huff, he just wanted to blame black people and positive discrimination (there wasn't any) for his lack of success. He'd have done better blaming women as the majority were women but I didn't tell him that, didn't want another rant.

It's always handy to have a fall guy, to pretend history wasn't always how we see it.

I remember years ago talking to an Arab guy about Lawrence of Arabia, I loved the film. He was very disparaging about the British claiming one lone British soldier achieved so much when it was vast numbers of Arabs fighting and dying. Both contain truth, neither view is absolutely correct but we see things through our own identity and experiences and what suits us.

Peasblossom

Or they might have been to Nottinghill and seen lots of people who weren’t gay dressed up in glitter and face paint. Or Glastonbury. Or a a Village fete. Or a children’s party.

Glitter and face paint do not equate with being gay.

Or only in some peoples minds.

How would you know if the people in Nottinghill, Glastonbury or a village fete are gay or not gay? It is pretty obvious that the people dressing up at a pride parade support pride.

Pride isn't just about being gay, why do you keep on about being gay? How about the transwoman who gets abuse, does she matter.

You don't want NT to do anything you don't like but you aren't the only person who would like to go to a NT property and feel welcome.