The National Trust - is it losing ours?

I have tried in houses to ask about the things that interest me, but are not a part of the NT story, only to find that room guides only know what they are told

That is a new NT initiative too, M0nica.
They pick on one particular period of history and that is what is told to visitors to the exclusion of other eras.

MawBe

Alegrias1

We're not allowed to call the right wing racists names are we? They get upset.

But oh, the temptation.....

Oh dear, I knew it was too good to last

What has that got to do with the thread/subject/price of bread/ anything?
Or is it just an observation en passant?
What happens if you are Right wing and from an ethnic minority?

Relations have broken down .

If someone denies another person's experience of racism, and tells them to all intents and purposes that they are imagining it, what do we call that? Even if they do it in a roundabout manner.

And if you are right wing, and from an ethnic minority and you are a racist....then you are a right wing racist who happens to be from an ethnic minority

Mine too Amberspyglass. I think it’s about time that the National Trust reflected modern society and culture, not just a romantic version of the past which many seem comfortable with.

But why?

That is the essence of what the NT is about - History!

Why on earth should it reflect modern society and culture?
That is for other areas of expertise, other groups!

Kali2

Ah yes, Priti Patel

Is she a National Trust member?

Otherwise, I'm not sure what she's doing on the thread?

The question is 'which history' - the real one or the white washed one we were taught?

Do you think German children are taught the same history as their grand-parents? I can assure you they are not.

So yes, let's be honest without being obsessed, and nought wrong with linking up with the realities of today. Even if it is to say that race and sexual identity were seen, or often, not seen, very differently then.

History does not link in a vacuum.

Do you remember watching cow-boys and Indians films in the 50s - and genuinely believing the Indians were the baddies. I do.

we have had a situation locally to me where a slave owners statue was put in a prominent place (not in a town square but an area of interest) and people have been asking for it to be taken down and there is lots of 'but he was important to the area' etc
when just down the road the ancestors of an early adopter of the anti slavery live and he has no statue anywhere. In fact there were lots of people in this area who were wealthy land owners who were early adopters of the anti slavery movement

The question is 'which history' - the real one or the white washed one we were taught?
Are you saying that all NT history is whitewashed?

I've learnt a lot since I was at school Kali2 and some of it I learned from visits to historical properties (not just NT), belonging to history groups and local societies and researching family histories.

None of that means that I think it is the place of the National Trust to teach us about modern society and culture when the whole point of its existence is to preserve historical properties and to teach us of the true history of those properties.

Thinking it should be teaching us about modern society and culture misses the whole point of its existence.

I would like the corporations who sat on their hands during the AIDS crisis, the Section 28 protests, the introduction of ‘civil partnerships’, and Section 28 repeal to stop enthusiastically rainbow-washing their corporate identities in 2021 now that it won’t cost them anything to be LGBT allies.

Those of us old enough to have been there at the time know and remember who our allies were, and we know who is just bandwagoning. You know who your real friends are when you are down.

Blossoming

Lisagran my bad! I totally misread your post! It’s been a long, hot day …

Phew, I nearly got stroppy with you there, ha, ha!

Thanks for the apology

No Calli.

What I said is that I think it is valid to make the link, between history, or histories depending on the angle, and today's society.

And that the history we have been taught at school has been whitewashed and distorted. Probably taught differently to our parents and grandparents- and to our children and grandchildren. Because a ot of it was either hidden, or distorted, from the pov of the 'winners' at a certain time along the timeline. Why should the NT not reflect this, and perhaps even makes us rethink what we were taught.

As said before, cow boys and Indians. I imagine most of our generation were either taught, or learnt through films, TV series and books, etc, that the Indians were the baddies. And yes, they could be really cruel when defending their way of life and sacred territory- but at the end of the day, THEY were wronged.

Sago

theworriedwell You clearly have a gripe with NT and I’m really sorry you had a bad experience.

I had a shocking experience with a pub landlord in a delightful Dales pub yesterday.
We had a drink in the garden after a long hike then asked for more drinks and to see the menu his response was “ you've been sitting there ages why didn’t you ask sooner, you can have nothing hot and we’ve no brown bread, I need your order now”

It was 1.30 and the pub apparently served food until 2.30.

It may have been because we were white, middle class Christian and British.
This would make him a racist.

I think though it was because it was hot, his wife we later learned was off for the day as it was her birthday and he was working under pressure.

Well the NT staff who were rude to us had no such excuse, if they did they wouldn't have been so helpful to the people in front of us, they wouldn't have then ignored us and helped the people behind us or the people behind them, they wouldn't have been rude when I asked if we were invisible and they wouldn't have then refused us the same help as the other customers.
,People have bad days, people get hot, and stressed but sometimes some of them get subjected to discrimination, that sort of explanation or justification or excuse whatever you want to call it, is exactly the reason my husband didn't want me to write a formal complaint because he's heard it for the last 74 years. I've only had it by association for 40 so I'm still a bit naive.

I can understand the landlord knew you were white, not so convinced he would instantly identify you as middle class and Christian. What race was he?

Oh I am so glad I provided you with some well deserved entertainment. You are welcome

You never disappoint, Kali2

I always wanted to be an Indian when I was a child. Didn't like the cowboys at all.

All these things I never knew, despite watching The Lone Ranger and Tonto.

Who knew?!
Tonto never mentioned the Lost Cities.
There were town planners there centuries before Europeans arrived.

Talullah

I always wanted to be an Indian when I was a child. Didn't like the cowboys at all.

Talullah
Probably from learning The Song of Hiawatha at primary school!

Lisagran

Kali2

Not so sweeping- Capability Brown's green parks were very much linked to the Enclosures, as attached peasant villages looked ugly and were in the way. And then the ahah concept was invented, the parks filled with sheep, and the peasants sent to work for a pittance on the frames and looms- having to spend their pittance on renting said frames- and live in terrible slum conditions.

The history of the Enclosures is so cruel and so deliberate, to find slave labour for the growing industrialisation. Denying that is just nonsense.

My History knowledge is not great, so I may be wrong, but I think one of the concepts attributed to Capability Brown was the introduction of Hahas. I think the concept of ahah is more to do with Alan Partidge

Alan Partridge was on Springwatch last week

Ah ha!

As said before, cow boys and Indians. I imagine most of our generation were either taught, or learnt through films, TV series and books, etc, that the Indians were the baddies

My education must have been sadly defective as I have no recollection of Cowboys and Indians ever featuring in History lessons. Normans, Saxons, Viking marauders even, Tudors, Stuart’s - but never the alone Ranger and Tonto. . Not even General Custer’s last stand.
Should the NT perhaps be addressing the issues of Native Americans too then?

21st century predictive text has not heard of the Lone Ranger !
Snowflake!

For a more up-to-date version there is always the Disney Pocahontas film (possibly the worst film from Disney) but we have to suffer if we want to educate ourselves.

Callistemon

Talullah

I always wanted to be an Indian when I was a child. Didn't like the cowboys at all.

Talullah
Probably from learning The Song of Hiawatha at primary school!

Indeed! And watching Last of the Mohicans. Very good TV series from donkey's years ago.

Normans, Saxons, Viking marauders even, Tudors, Stuarts

Not to mention From Ur to Rome.
Empires come and go
And then the maurauding hordes of Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

Goths are not just a modern concept so perhaps the National Trust could hold a Goth Weekend too?
All volunteers dressed up and Goth music playing in the background.

Talullah

I always wanted to be an Indian when I was a child. Didn't like the cowboys at all.

I did as well. I think the main driver was I wanted that long, straight, shiny black hair. My sister had black hair, I'm ginger. I spent my childhood longing for black hair. I had a bit of a thing for Zorro as well.

I do not remember history st shool being particularly distorted, we covered, slavery learnt about the arab contribution to the Renaissance and the importance of arab culture.

However I am seeing some very strange history on this thread. Yes, in the 17th century in some cases where manor house and village were contigious, villages were demolished and rebuilt on another site. One of most famous exaamples is near where I live and i would think the villagers were very happy moving from a hilltop location with problems over the wateer supply down alongside the main road and with a ready supply of water - and no, the village doesn't flood.

However, enclosure was some thing entirely different and the two are not related,although they may have been done as part of a grand reorganisation of lamb.

Enclosure started in the 16th cnetury when rural populationn had not fully recovered from the Blackdeath....

I will not bore you with the whole history of enclosure.

I would just make the point, just because we disaprove of how history was taught in the past is no justification for making gross distortions of our own.

Rememeber 100 years from now, our view of history and all we are doing now will be widely criticised by our descendents, because that is what always happens.

MawBe, the "alone Ranger" Probably why he hooked up with Tonto.