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'Trans' a book about transactivism

(350 Posts)
FarNorth Sun 18-Jul-21 18:37:55

'The chapter entitled “We just need to pee” provides a shocking exposé on the mess that is the Canadian prison system. Although “women are around five times more likely than men to be the victim of a sexual crime, and men are one hundred times more likely to be the perpetrator of one,” the Canadian prison service has decided to allow whoever identifies as a woman into the female prison.
It has also decided not to keep a record of how many transwomen there are, despite the fact that studies show that transwomen retain the male pattern of offending for sexual violence; “No one in authority is even counting them, let alone tracking the harm done to female prisoners.”'

www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-when-ideology-meets-reality-helen-joyce-review-b944183.html?fbclid=IwAR1ph3tCPJcA61RA4C7wwnHz5X-gru1d3l6sdLOWQ3yrPP0vFqFb9YMcHCs .

lemongrove Mon 19-Jul-21 21:51:48

Rosie51

AmberSpyglass Women are adult human females, that class of mammal that has the role in reproduction of producing large immotile gametes. Men are adult human males, that class of mammal that has the role of producing small motile gametes. There are two sexes, one cannot change to the other. People are free to dress how they like, love who they like, follow careers and pastimes they like no matter how these may have been historically allocated. Anything else is just pure stereotyping and a regressive step. But women are entitled to single sex spaces. Oh and cis is widely regarded as offensive and unnecessary, it might be better not to use it. Women does just fine for the female sex, transwomen can be used as the definer for people who are transgender.

I was thinking much the same thing.

lemongrove Mon 19-Jul-21 21:50:31

Gaga do you mean first hand experience of being trans Lesbian or just experience of ‘weird little corners of the Internet?’ It isn’t clear.

GagaJo Mon 19-Jul-21 21:48:14

AmberSpyglass

Trans women are women. Trans lesbians are valid and embraced by the majority of the community. It’s just weird little corners of the internet like this where they aren’t.

Totally agree Amber. And I have first hand experience of this.

Rosie51 Mon 19-Jul-21 21:46:21

AmberSpyglass Women are adult human females, that class of mammal that has the role in reproduction of producing large immotile gametes. Men are adult human males, that class of mammal that has the role of producing small motile gametes. There are two sexes, one cannot change to the other. People are free to dress how they like, love who they like, follow careers and pastimes they like no matter how these may have been historically allocated. Anything else is just pure stereotyping and a regressive step. But women are entitled to single sex spaces. Oh and cis is widely regarded as offensive and unnecessary, it might be better not to use it. Women does just fine for the female sex, transwomen can be used as the definer for people who are transgender.

lemongrove Mon 19-Jul-21 21:41:38

Trans Lesbians?
You mean a man who was born and lived as a man and then became a woman? Who liked women?
Or ( and this is getting confusing) a woman who was born and lived as a woman and then became a man?Who liked women?
What prison should a trans Lesbian go to?
Is there a trans Gay man? He now looks like a woman but still likes men?
Am sure you will have all the answers Amber...in fact you may be the only poster who does.

lemongrove Mon 19-Jul-21 21:34:30

AmberSpyglass

Why would trans women want to use male facilities? They’re women. Would you?

Are they women if they have a penis and a beard you could lose a badger in? What exactly meets the criteria?
Common sense would mean a special unit in both men’s and women's prisons for transgender people.This may be problematic though if there are only one or two of them.
Most prisons aren’t designed this way as in the past there were either men or women...ah, wasn’t life simple then?

AmberSpyglass Mon 19-Jul-21 21:23:49

Trans women are women. Trans lesbians are valid and embraced by the majority of the community. It’s just weird little corners of the internet like this where they aren’t.

JaneJudge Mon 19-Jul-21 21:18:41

quite Rosie, I don't understand why being concerned about this makes people phobic or bigoted! it is utterly ridiculous

Rosie51 Mon 19-Jul-21 21:17:56

Pip/Philip Bunce is a woman part of each week, the other days she/he is a man. Confused? Pip was so delighted to be named in the top 100 business women.

Rosie51 Mon 19-Jul-21 21:11:26

When rapes committed by a fully intact male body are recorded as female crimes because the rapist identifies as a woman, and indeed the victim is obliged to use female pronouns then something has gone horribly wrong. It is surely not beyond the wit of people to realise that self ID opens the door to perverts who are happy to "identify" as female if it opens doors to potential victims. They are no more transgender than I am!

Rosie51 Mon 19-Jul-21 21:04:45

And here is "lesbian" Alex Drummond.

FarNorth Mon 19-Jul-21 20:43:07

Here's a picture of Fionne Orlander, a transwoman who has no problem with using male toilets.

Ilovecheese Mon 19-Jul-21 20:11:09

Regarding prisons my opinion is that if someone has been living as woman for some time, then commits a non violent crime say shoplifting, not paying the TV license, the sort of crime women get sent down for, then I think they could be considered for a women's prison, on condition that a full assessment was undertaken and the opinion of the women prisoners taken into account. Their feelings are of equal importance to those of the trans woman.
If however, when living as a man, they have committed a violent or sexual offence, get convicted and then decide that they are a woman and want to go to a women's prison then their request should be refused.

I also don't believe that all these people that say they are supporting trans rights are doing so because they believe trans people are badly treated but because they just don't like women. When someone writes that they hope that JK Rowling gets a pipe bomb in the post, that sounds like they just can't stand that a woman is richer and more successful than they will ever be.

When someone want Jess Phillips expelled from the Labour party because she did not include murdered trans women in the list of names that she read out in parliament (even though no trans women were murdered) that looks to me like they don't like her because she stands up for women who have suffered male violence.

GagaJo Mon 19-Jul-21 20:10:45

My experience of trans is mostly from my students over the years, although also from a women's support group I used to work in.

The students I have worked with have been 14/15 years old and have understandably, always found their situation very difficult to navigate in a school setting. A bit of kindness and acceptance goes a long way. The happiest student I ever worked with was in an overseas school that was very accepting of every single students differences and uniqueness. No child or adult in the school questioned or judged. It was wonderful to see. The student also had very supportive parents.

Conversely, I have also worked with trans people who have been alone and misunderstood. A terrible circumstance for them.

Galaxy Mon 19-Jul-21 19:39:03

Saying it doesnt make it true. Many transwomen only use mixed sex facilities as they understand the issue of not eroding womens boundaries.

SueDonim Mon 19-Jul-21 19:37:50

The Ministry of Justice has already reduced women’s rights to accommodate transwomen.

Apologies for the long article but I haven’t found a way to link to it. It’s from Woman’s Place UK’s Facebook page.

“I am coming out of semi-retirement from writing about sex and gender to write this, because it’s about women in prison, a group that desperately need more attention from people interested in politics and policy.

The High Court has been considering the question of transgender women (i.e. people who were born male) in the female prison estate. That’s after a legal action was brought by a woman in a female jail who says she was sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner. The prison service hasn’t denied that this assault took place.

The claimant, was imprisoned between October 2016 and June 2020, argued that prison service policy in England and Wales is unlawful because it exposes women in the female estate to the increased risk of sexual assault by transwomen prisoners, a risk that is not similarly posed to male prisoners in the male estate.

That prison service policy, in essence, says that at least some transwomen offenders should be allowed to serve their sentence in the female estate if they wish. The claim failed and the court ruled that prison policy is lawful. But the ruling remains hugely significant and deserves close reading.

For context, the court heard that a significant number of transwomen in jail are there for sexual offences. In March/April 2019, there were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences. 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate.

There remains debate about the statistics here, and the Ministry of Justice is reviewing its data collection methods. But Lord Justice Holroyde reached this conclusion:

I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women's prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced.

The judge also found that female prisons, who are disproportionately likely to have been victims of sexual assault, may be frankly terrified of being confined with a male-bodied sex offender:

Many people may think it incongruous and inappropriate that a prisoner of masculine physique and with male genitalia should be accommodated in a female prison in any circumstances. More importantly for the Claimant's case, I readily accept that a substantial proportion of women prisoners have been the victims of sexual assaults and/or domestic violence.

I also readily accept the proposition ... that some, and perhaps many, women prisoners may suffer fear and acute anxiety if required to share prison accommodation and facilities with a transgender women who has male genitalia, and that their fear and anxiety may be increased if that transgender woman has been convicted of sexual or violent offences against women.

However, the court found that prison service policy remains lawful, because that policy must reflect not just the interests of female prisoners but also the interests of transwomen prisoners:

the subjective concerns of women prisoners are not the only concerns which the Defendant [the Justice Secretary] had to consider in developing the policies: he also had to take into account the rights of transgender women in the prison system.

And allowing some transwomen prisoners to serve their time in the female estate alongside women prisoners is necessary under the law (especially the Equality Act 2010), the court found. Because the prison service has checks and safeguards in place to ‘manage’ the risks potentially posed by transwomen prisoners, it is acceptable under the law to expose women prisoners to those risks. The judge concludes:

the policies permit, and indeed require, the necessary balancing of competing rights. The concerns of the Claimant are of course understandable, but are not the only concerns which the Defendant had to consider.

The debate about sex and gender is complicated and often fraught, not least when it reaches the courts. But there are two, fairly simple, points that I think everyone should draw from that court ruling.

The first is that the High Court has confirmed that accommodating the interests of transwomen and women leads, in some circumstances, to 'competing rights'. Sometimes, giving something to transwomen means taking something away from women. There is nothing transphobic or otherwise hateful about saying so. It is, as the court ruling shows, a simple statement of fact.

That leads to the second point. In this case, the state has given to some transwomen offenders the right to be imprisoned in the female prison estate. That decision, made to accommodate the interests of those transwomen, comes at the expense of women in the female estate. The court found that those women are exposed to an increased risk of sexual assault and to anxiety and fear of such sexual assault.

The court further found that, under the law as it stands, it is legal for ministers to implement a policy that exposes women prisoners to that increased risk and to 'understandable' fear, because – assuming proper mitigation is in place – that risk and that fear are an acceptable price to pay to accommodate the interests of transwomen prisoners.

I’m not going to bother saying what I think of this situation, because I suspect I don’t need to. I also note that the Ministry of Justice is already reviewing the policy in question, so I think this won’t be the last word on the matter.

Instead, I will conclude by saying that the High Court ruling has confirmed beyond doubt something that a great many women have been trying to say for several years, often meeting with aggressive rejection and accusations of bigotry. The court confirmed that in some circumstances, accommodating the interests of male-born transwomen means imposing costs and burdens on women.

And that raises a question that society as a whole still needs to answer: why should women pay and suffer to serve the interests of people who were born male?”

AmberSpyglass Mon 19-Jul-21 19:35:24

Why would trans women want to use male facilities? They’re women. Would you?

FarNorth Mon 19-Jul-21 19:29:32

Men need to be kind so that transwomen are not afraid to go into male facilities, as they claim to be at present.
Men need to widen the bandwidth of what it means to be a man.

Some of us thought Eddie Izzard was doing that but it seems he's given up on it.

FarNorth Mon 19-Jul-21 19:25:59

It's practicality.

trisher Mon 19-Jul-21 19:08:27

So now we have more segregation. If you can pass you can enter women's facilities if you can't you can't. What about women who look like men? And who on earth is going to police this?
Let's get this straight transmen can use male facilities but Transwomen can't use women's facilities. Is that really equality??

FarNorth Mon 19-Jul-21 18:48:40

My view is that transmen who look like men using men's facilities is a non-issue because biological men are in no danger from transmen.
Although I do, indeed, see them as women it's up to them if they can pass as men in men's facilities.

The same is not true of men claiming to be women.
Clearly, if a male can pass as a woman there's nothing anyone can do to stop him using women's facilities.
An increasing number of 'transwomen' are now making little effort to pass.
Those people should not be accepted in females' facilities.

Doodledog Mon 19-Jul-21 18:37:02

If you feel your rights are being eroded and you want some sort of search made of anyone who doesn't conform to the perceived appearance of what a woman should look like well good luck with that. I don't want to carry some sort of ID with me. I don't want to look to see what is inside someone's trousers or dress.
Eh? Not wanting women's rights to be eroded does not equate to wanting searches, or wanting to look at people's genitals - that's a bit of a leap.

As has been said, the thread is about prisons, so the sex of prisoners should be a matter of record, and in any case, aren't prisoners strip-searched on entry? If not, someone needs to tell the drama department of TV stations.

FWIW, I agree that a sub section jail should be available to transpeople, and also that if this were a non-issue there would be no need for sex-segregated jails in the first place.

trisher Mon 19-Jul-21 18:33:49

Sorry I started another post and forgot to remove the quote. There is a transwomen's wing in a women's prison now.

trisher Mon 19-Jul-21 18:32:29

FarNorth

*trisher*, a lot of the discussion on this thread is about prisoners.
It is very unlikely that prison authorities don't know the biological sex of all prisoners.

The reason the transmen issue is too complicated is that those people who believe you should use the facilities for the gender on your birth certificate because you cannot change believe therefore that transmen are women. They should therefore access women's facilities, although they look like men. The obvious result is that people looking like men will be in women's facilities, so how would you know who was trans, and who wasn't?

Allsorts Mon 19-Jul-21 18:30:49

If they have a penis they are men, if they have a vagina and womb, women.