'Trans' a book about transactivism

Anyone who says feminists arent interested in the issue of transmen really hasnt been paying attention. It is one of the issues most commonly discussed. It was the feminists who stood with Keira Bell in her law case, Keira was a transmen who subsequently detransitioned. People might want to talk to the detransitioning transmen about the evil feminists who have been standing with them.

The trouble is 'people' interpret the law incorrectly a lot of the time. I don't feel convinced or confident my daughter's care provider would be able to imply female only care if a male working for them self ID as a woman and they sought their in house 'legal advice' to say that was it within the law and she is much more statistically likely to be sexually abused than her non learning disabled peers. I'm not convinced local authorities or social services move quickly enough in these kind of circumstances either from my own experience.

Can we just say what we like now. Debate has indeed tried to have been silenced on MN, feminists have been threatened, MN advertisers have been targeted, but not by the feminists. Those who have been banned on MN are banned for breaking forum guidelines not for taking a particular stance in a debate
Doodledog just go on the feminist boards it's the easiest way to see the truth. Nobody has anything to hide. All feminists in this debate would be able to share screenshots of rape threats, threats of violence, porn etc etc.

Totaly agree Shelmiss.

trisher, a lot of the discussion on this thread is about prisoners.
It is very unlikely that prison authorities don't know the biological sex of all prisoners.

GagaJo how do you expect to level the balance if you don't engage?
I'm very glad when I see someone presenting an opposite view as I'd like to understand them.

Many feminists are interested in transmen who, as young women, are being encouraged to harm their bodies by eg full hysterectomies in their twenties, as well as permanent damage caused by taking testosterone.

I just refuse to get into this debate again. If you feel your rights are being eroded and you want some sort of search made of anyone who doesn't conform to the perceived appearance of what a woman should look like well good luck with that. I don't want to carry some sort of ID with me. I don't want to look to see what is inside someone's trousers or dress.
The law is quite clear about what can and cannot be done to keep women safe.The fact that it iis not being correctly applied is entirely another issue and certainly isn't the fault of transpeople. Is it being used by men who see this as a means of dividing and segregating minority groups? that is much more likely.

Funnily enough I believe that trannies- in whichever direction need support now and in the future.
For some, there are already examples of the later distress the earlier treatment caused, possibly why more want to go for the Self ID rather than physical alterations.

Simply I feel trans should not use their original gender in an unfair way, especially against natal women. It’s wrong.
The frightening procedures that are being perpetrated on children are another issue.

trisher wrote
"Transmen seldom come into the discussion. They're much too complicated for these 'feminists" to tackle."
Glad to read this. The only real life example of trans that I know is the daughter of a close friend who we've known since she was a little girl. Always very dainty and 'feminine.
We socialise with them, her father supports her. I can't get to the point of asking her why?
She still has her high-pitched female voice.

that should read transwomen and transmen, rather than transwomen and men. I am multi tasking and I am not very good at it

They need their own gender based rights as a sub group otherwise full males will take advantage, as they have done. The fact male sexual predators have already accessed female only prions and committed sexually based crime, such as rape is of concern. Transwomen and men are/should be just as concerned about this? their activism has been hijacked

I'm sorry to hear that. I happen to think that the trans issue is very dangerous to women, but I don't like to see debate stifled.

Voices! Apologies for the terrible typing

Nope. It has had articles written about it. Vocies are silenced if they insist on trying to have a balanced debate. On the positive side, Mumsnet HAS opened another feminist forum for those that want to discuss non-trans feminist issues. But the transphobics have taken high dudgeon to it and have mobbed it, thus silencing feminists not interested in trans issues.

Mumsnet already delete the accounts of those who are not anti trans

Really? I am surprised to hear this, as more usually it is gender-critical voices who are cancelled, silenced and attacked.

Sorry - you are quite right - I meant transwomen.

I don't see transmen as too complicated, incidentally - it's just that I have no reason to see them as imposing on women, and I don't 'tackle' things for the sake of it.

My feminism doesn't need inverted commas either. I support the rights of women. I would happily include women who have transitioned from being men in that support, but I think that men who identify as women without further commitment are still men, so see their needs as secondary. Not unimportant, and not to be ignored, but secondary to the needs of women.

It seems to me to be doublespeak to say that feminism includes putting the rights of men over those of women - however those men choose to identify.

As I said, if trans rights supporters don't speak up, the argument is seen as totally one sided. Mumsnet already delete the accounts of those who are not anti trans.

I'm not interested in arguing the point. Just leveling the balance a little.

Doodledog The fact we are sidelined (and worse), whilst transmen are listened to and prioritised says a lot, and the fact that they are sometimes supported by women who see the needs of their own sex as secondary is disappointing.
I take it you meant to say transwomen in this statement.
Transmen seldom come into the discussion. They're much too complicated for these 'feminists" to tackle.
I have never regarded women's issues as secondary I simply believe that transpeople have rights as well and that the campaign to divide us smacks of the patriachy. It has always worked like this. Divide and rule!

FarNorth

GagaJo I believe you.
However, the current situation of instant acceptance of anyone's claim to be the opposite sex is already leading to problems.
It is not transphobic to recognise that.

This is how I see it.

The current insistence that men can self-ID as woman and be women with no questions asked is setting back the cause of transpeople massively.

Many people on here have said that they have no issue with people wanting to transition, but that they are uneasy about the encroachment of men into women's spaces. This does not make us transphobic, and attacking us as such does nothing to help the trans cause either.

It is not only on here that I see many left-leaning older feminists objecting to the way in which the patriarchy is pushing into women's lives and pushing women out of places where we once felt safe, and winning awards that we have fought to win as women, not as non-men.

The fact we are sidelined (and worse), whilst transmen are listened to and prioritised says a lot, and the fact that they are sometimes supported by women who see the needs of their own sex as secondary is disappointing.

Heathermomo most who now claim to be transwomen have no medical procedures, especially not penis removal.

Transwomen show the same patterns of criminality as other males.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

GagaJo I believe you.
However, the current situation of instant acceptance of anyone's claim to be the opposite sex is already leading to problems.
It is not transphobic to recognise that.

As far as I can see, trans women are far more likely to suffer from sexual violence than perpetrate it. The issue with violent men is not their level of testosterone or their sexual drives it is their innate lack of self confidence. They seek to exercise power over others and the others they pick on are women and animals because they see them as weaker. I am generalising, but the way men are generally brought up is to focus on strength "big boys don't cry" "be strong" "don't be a sissy" I find men who suffer from toxic masculinity are wary of appearing "unmanly" For this reason the argument about men dressing up as women to oppress "natural" women is a nonsense. No way would a man with this issue allow his masculinity to be questioned by wearing a skirt, much less go under the medical procedures required to transition.

I haven't and probably won't read the book. I'm only commenting because otherwise the trans phobic lobby takes over.

I have supported trans men and women and will continue to do so. It is a very long, hard road they travel, and I have yet to meet one who has done it JUST to take womens rights away from them.

Thanks TerriBull
The truth is ignored because they’re actually men. Men make the decisions and if women complain they’re likely to be banned from speaking publicly and deluged by hate-mail calling them transphobic bigots.
Transwomen racing in natal women’s races benefits men. If it didn’t they wouldn’t enter.
Natal men don’t need to compete with an inbuilt advantage to show how good they are. They simply work at training to improve and race against other natal men.

Here's an extract relating to women's sport

"It seemed obvious to me that a natal male who had reached puberty as a male would, other things being equal, outperform women in almost any sport. That was why we had women's sport in the first place.

The fact is that women were obviously designed for childbirth. The chromosomal difference between men and women bequeaths women with less stable hips and a less efficient gait but that capacity to grow a child and give birth to it.

The average adult man, has 41 per cent more non fat body mass, 50 per cent more muscle mass in his legs and 75 per cent more in his arms. His legs are 65 per cent stronger and his upper body is 90 per cent stronger. That's why the fastest time ever run by Allyson Felix, the woman's 400 metre Olympics champion is beaten more than 15,000 times each year by men and boys! This athletic advantage will be conferred to a post pubertal transwoman, even if she takes testosterone suppressors.

Yet this inescapable truth however is increasingly being overlooked by sports bodies