'Trans' a book about transactivism

Nice deflection. I'd hoped for a straight yes or no, what does "not banned" mean? So mixed category sport which will end with being all male. I'll repeat yet again, no amount of testosterone reduction can reduce a bigger frame, heart and lungs. There are tables that show hundreds if not thousands of schoolboys can beat the times of medal winning female athletes, but who cares if females give up doing competitive sports as long as the men are happy.

I'm not sure they should be banned Rosie51after all if you stop women with high levels of testosterone competing, men who meet the requirement should theoretically be permitted.
What I really find strange is that there is no research to show the effects of natural testosterone on performance. The artificial hormone if taken does improve performance but no one has looked at natural levels.

I'll look at the study tomorrow. Reading just the bit you've quoted I'm not at all confident it will be at all a useful tool outside the Paralympics.

I'd still be interested in anyone answering my question using the rules for sports as they stand at the moment. Should any man who can meet the testosterone requirement be able to enter the women's category and if not, why not?

Rosie51 the testosterone levels of athletes are not the same as ordinary people. There is a very interesting solution suggested in this article ^https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570685/
It suggests using 10 criteria similar to the system used in the Paralympics.^
What if we were to match the 10 categories of impairment to 10 categories of advantages, where we list all known biological elements that provide a competitive edge, such as LBM, height, vision, muscle strength, oxygen carrying red blood cells, lung size, etc.? We could then assign each athlete a numerical grade in relation to the sport they wish to compete in. Similarly to the IPC classification code, for each sport, the calculation would be different, prioritizing specific traits that benefit athletes in that particular sport. Using a list of advantages rather than looking for a single perfect criterion may help mitigate problems resulting from trying to enforce rules based on non-existing biological dichotomies.

This system would constitute a complete reimagining of our current way of thinking—a plan to ‘start over’. It may be that some sports would remain ‘sexed’ due to consistent differences between males and females within the ‘advantages list’, but other categories would be completely shuffled, producing new winners and losers. After the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio, where three athletes in the Paralympics had better times than the gold medalist in the Olympics 1500 m race,73 it is easy to imagine that those traditionally considered disadvantaged would outdo the ‘advantaged’.

Didn't answer the question though trisher Should any man who can meet the testosterone requirement be able to enter the women's category and if not, why not?

No there isn't a complete crossover. Even women with PCOS will typically register less than 5.2 nmol/l. If a woman registers greater than 6.9 nmol/l then she will normally be referred for investigation for a possible ovarian or adrenal tumour. Normal ranges for testosterone range 0.2-1.7 nmol/l for women but a hulking 8.7-29 nmol/l for men. Lower than 8nmol/l in men would normally be treated with supplementary testosterone.
Regardless of this no amount of testosterone reduction can reduce a bigger frame, heart and lungs.

Rosie51 as I have said before there is little evidence of men's levels because few tests have been done on men, but the one test undertaken indicated that there is a complete cross over as far as testosterone levels are concerned with some male athletes having lower levels and some women higher. Which does make you wonder why it is being used to ban black women.
It isn't a very reliable way to adjudicate.

Just been talking about this in real life and a question about sport inclusion was raised. As a transgender athlete only has to decrease their testosterone level to 10nmols/l would it be fair for any man (not declared transgender) to compete against women as long as they also reduce their testosterone level in line with regulations? If not, why not? It should also be remembered that 10 nmols/l is within the healthy range for a male, albeit at the bottom end, so some males wouldn't even need drugs to achieve this.

trisher

Isn't that a bit dismissive? To be concerned about a theoretical concept that there may be transwomen who might be in some way at an advantage but to ignore the very real problems which already exist in women's sport and which disadvantage black women. Are you saying that only some differences matter? And therefore that the treatment of black women doesn't matter? Isn't this just an example of the long and complicated problem that has existed in women's sport for a long time and that levelling the playing field is neither as easy nor as simple as you pretend?

This is a classic example of the DARVO behaviour referred to upthread.

My concern about cheating in sport does not mean that I am not bothered about the treatment of black women (a carefully chosen demographic to give you the opportunity to imply sexism and racism on my part) ?.

GagaJo So Laurel Hubbard a rich white person displacing a poor woman of colour doesn't bother you because she is a transwoman? Your care about the unfair treatment of people of colour only extends so far then, transgender status is more important than race. That's your intersectional feminism?

trisher

Isn't that a bit dismissive? To be concerned about a theoretical concept that there may be transwomen who might be in some way at an advantage but to ignore the very real problems which already exist in women's sport and which disadvantage black women. Are you saying that only some differences matter? And therefore that the treatment of black women doesn't matter? Isn't this just an example of the long and complicated problem that has existed in women's sport for a long time and that levelling the playing field is neither as easy nor as simple as you pretend?

No it’s not a bit dismissive. It isn’t even attempting to solve all the problems in sport any more than I can find evidence that investigations into mistreatment of black female athletes attempts to deal with transwomen.
I can see it would be convenient for some to bury the issue of transwomen taking places that would be won by natal women if the trans were not competing in female sport under a wider blanket, but I feel each issue deserves separate investigation and a separate solution except where the issues overlap.
Who on here has pretended levelling the playing field in women’s sport was easy?
It’s certainly been made more difficult by allowing men to compete in women’s support.

Mistyped part of last post.
“Says it includes allowing men to make decisions and rules that benefit men more than women.”

Nothing that I have read about Intersectional feminism- and I am quite well read about that, says it allows including allowing men to make decisions and rules that benefit men more than women.

The issue of black female athletes being mistreated is important and should be looked into.
If they are also being affected by attempts by transwomen to nullify the efforts of black female athletes then that is doubly unacceptable.
However, as people are only too quick to point out on other threads the OP referred to Trans. We are not discussing the mistreatment of black female athletes on this thread.

GJ So, not theoretical stuff. Fact, is that a minority of transwomen are claiming their rights override the rights of natal women, they have the right to invade spaces where natal women should be able to feel safe, and that they should be allowed to cheat in sporting events.

It would appear that you support the rights of men over women-even though this support is disguised under the heading of supporting transwomen over natal women.
Some women do.

Not exactly intersectional feminism. It strikes me that feminism is undergoing a regression, back to the bad old days of feminism only being for white, middle-class, 'real' women.

Of course, this is just an offshoot or a splintering. Many feminists continue to be intersectional.

GagaJo

Yes, Trisher. I agree. FAR more black female athletes being mistreated than the lone 1 or 2 trans women entering womens sport. Not theoretical stuff. Fact.

There are more than 1 or 2 and you might care to note that Laurel Hubbard a very rich white transwoman displaced a poor woman of colour in the weightlifting. Laurel Hubbard who at their peak of their men's weightlifting didn't come close to being considered for a place in the men's section.

You cannot trade off one wrongdoing for another, can't we deal with more than one at a time?

Isn't that a bit dismissive? To be concerned about a theoretical concept that there may be transwomen who might be in some way at an advantage but to ignore the very real problems which already exist in women's sport and which disadvantage black women. Are you saying that only some differences matter? And therefore that the treatment of black women doesn't matter? Isn't this just an example of the long and complicated problem that has existed in women's sport for a long time and that levelling the playing field is neither as easy nor as simple as you pretend?

Galaxy

It's not very complicated, we segregate sport by sex, if there is evidence that this is not necessary, then that evidence needs to be clearly presented and we need to stop doing it. Not pretend that some men should be allowed to compete in the categories for the female sex.

Agreed.

And deflecting the discussion by bringing in examples of the mistreatment of women does not alter the fact that same-sex categories are far less likely to disadvantage women.

Yes, Trisher. I agree. FAR more black female athletes being mistreated than the lone 1 or 2 trans women entering womens sport. Not theoretical stuff. Fact.

It's not very complicated, we segregate sport by sex, if there is evidence that this is not necessary, then that evidence needs to be clearly presented and we need to stop doing it. Not pretend that some men should be allowed to compete in the categories for the female sex.

Sport is a very complicated matter and it is has been discussed ad nauseam on another thread. The question of what constitutes an advantage and how that can be addressed isn't easy. At present there is a very real fear that black women athletes are being mistreated
www.salon.com/2021/07/06/shacarri-richardson-black-women-olympics-misogynoir/

I haven’t said I’m anti trans. I have actually said trans are welcome to dress as women or call themselves what they will.
I’m anti the behaviour of transwomen who use their masculinity to cheat at sport and override the rights of natal women.

GagaJo

To a certain extent, I agree. I'm anti Zionist (definitively NOT anti Semitic please note). I'm not Palestinian or Jewish.

But it strikes me that many anti trans individuals are railing against something that is only theoretical to them, when those they protest against are severely damaged.

Ah but there are those who on hearing you air a view that was anti Zionist would accuse you of being anti Semitic. You'd no doubt be offended and annoyed. The anti trans accusations bandied about are just the same to anyone who has concerns over single sex exemptions being overridden or plans for them to be removed.

I don't know if I am included in this observation, GagaJo; but I can assure you that I am not an 'anti-trans individual'.

I wonder if you and trisher actually read the posts of those of us who keep saying that all we object to is self-ID. Not even that, actually - I only object to the ability of men to self-ID as women and then access single-sex spaces or otherwise use the ID to gain advantage over women.

I am not anti-trans. I have not seen evidence of anti-trans prejudice on this thread. If you have, would you please point it out?

To a certain extent, I agree. I'm anti Zionist (definitively NOT anti Semitic please note). I'm not Palestinian or Jewish.

But it strikes me that many anti trans individuals are railing against something that is only theoretical to them, when those they protest against are severely damaged.

GagaJo

It's all very well, all this arguing. But how many have personally been adversely affected by encountering a trans woman in your real, face to face life?

Do we have to encountered an adverse event personally before we try to find a solution so that the adverse event doesn't occur in the first place? Personally, no I've not been adversely affected so far. My niece, a nurse, has been. May I be concerned at one remove?
If we can only enter into debate/discussion over things that have personally affected us we're going to be rather short of participants on most threads.