Mridul Wadhwa - Male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis

I didn't expect my answer to satisfy you Doodledog , in fact I would have been surprised if anything I say satisfied you. You might of course have commented about the many inaccuracies and false assumptions posted on this thread, but you failed to do so. Possibly because they are indefensible. So rather than actually admit this you choose to attempt to denigrate me. It's an old strategy, known I believe as playing the man (or in this case woman) and not the ball.
There are enough threads on GN where I have defended women from attacks by biased posters, who are not apparently misogynistic, unless of course you are the wrong sort of woman.

Petunia, sexuality of course refers to someones sexual orientation, e.g. heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual etc. It's a dictionary recognised terminology.

Indeed GagaJo and those terms depend on the recognition of the biological fact that there are two sexes, which are unchangeable.

Yes indeed FarNorth.

Gagajo- I do understand what sex means, and gender. They are two different things. Unfortunately, gender-a much more fluid term, is used in place of sex, a biological term. The use of gender instead of sex has got us into the pickle that we are in.

So instead of being able to ask Mridul outright what sex they are, we accept what they say. If a person conceals their sex and states a gender identity, particularly in a sensitive area such as women's refuges, where the employer can legitimately ask for biological women, is that not lying. At best it is misleading.

trisher

I didn't expect my answer to satisfy you Doodledog , in fact I would have been surprised if anything I say satisfied you. You might of course have commented about the many inaccuracies and false assumptions posted on this thread, but you failed to do so. Possibly because they are indefensible. So rather than actually admit this you choose to attempt to denigrate me. It's an old strategy, known I believe as playing the man (or in this case woman) and not the ball.
There are enough threads on GN where I have defended women from attacks by biased posters, who are not apparently misogynistic, unless of course you are the wrong sort of woman.

trisher I didn't 'fail' to do anything. I wasn't asked a question, and it's not a case of my 'admitting' anything either - I am not on trial.

I think you are accusing me of an ad hominem attack, but that's not at all what I was doing. I am not strategising at all.

I just asked a question, which was, as ever, not answered, but instead replied to with a convoluted diversion that you hope will lead the responder into forgetting that the question had been asked.

I'm not the only person to notice that you do this (it would be strange if I were, as it's so blatant and so routine a response). Many people have pointed out that you repeatedly do this, and that you follow the diversion with an attack on the poster who asked you the question, in order to put them in the wrong, and paint yourself as the victim. It doesn't work, though - you have played that card so often that we can all see it coming.

I don't understand the last sentence of your post, apart from the bit with the jibe that suggests that I am transphobic. That one's getting worn too. I think it's clear to anyone reading these threads that I am not, unless you are defining transphobic as meaning 'anyone who ever speaks out against a situation in which a transwoman puts her rights against those of women, or expects society to do likewise', in which case we disagree about what constitutes transphobia.

I am not a gender critical feminist. No point me engaging with you on that level.

Just, if you use the term sexuality incorrectly, it gives an entirely different slant to your point. Unintentionally.

Interesting I am supposed to respond to a theoretical question but the very real and obvious mistakes, misapprehensions, misquotes about the person the thread refers to are not to be dealt with.
As far as rights go I don't think there is a hierarchy of rights. I don't think anyone's rights should be considered above another persons. I think such ideology is synonymous with patriachy, which would have you believe your rights are threatened by others. It's a strategy I thought most feminists recognised and rejected years ago.
I expect you to regard this as avoiding the question, but answering a theoretical question is difficult when you think that the trans woman and the woman are both women and human rights are universal. Perhaps you should make it clearer as to the situation you envisage where their rights would be in conflict.

Ah, gagajo- I see what happended. I believe the spell check adjusted sex to sexuality. Always check what you have written eh?

But sexuality is never asked for on job applications. Sex yes, at one time. Gender now, more commonly. Questionnaires rarely ask for sex. Its usually gender.

And this is where the problem starts. How can society recognise the difference between a protected characteristic-female, or a gender fluid individual who has one of dozens of identities, and a someone who has undergone all surgical and pharmacological treatments including the relevant GRC if the only words we have are the nebulous and ever expanding term gender?

you say gender critical as though its a bad thing. are we to accept all gender writings and pronouncements as the final truth while other areas of life we can question and debate?

when you think that the trans woman and the woman are both women

But that's not a sensible thing to think.

Or are we talking at cross purposes because some of us think that woman = adult human female while others think that woman = stereotype that can be followed by anyone?

I don't have a problem with debate Petunia. But I see the way trisher is talked to on here and frankly, I don't want to be spoken to that way.

I don't think criticism, as an analysis, is bad. But it doesn't always take that form on here. Frequently the attacks are personal and rude.

I am pro trans. I've been to gay and lesbian conferences, years ago, where many of the butch lesbians and effeminate gay men were beginning to transition. It is a very hard life. I support those that make those choices. That is all.

But I appreciate your civility. Thank you ? ☮️

Perhaps you should make it clearer as to the situation you envisage where their rights would be in conflict.

How often do I have to do this?

A situation in which a woman's religion or culture (or personal preference) forbids her from being touched by a man other than her husband, but her doctor, potentially without the woman's knowledge, is a transwoman.

A situation in which there is a prize (and these are often career-changing) for a female artist, poet, playwright or similar, but is open to anyone 'identifying as female'.

A swimming baths has a communal changing room at the 'female' side of the pool. There are cubicles at the back, but many women shower and change their children in the communal one, in order to keep an eye on more than one child at once. An untransitioned transwoman uses the communal facilities as she identifies as female, and in so doing exposes her male genitals to the women and children in the changing room.

A job is advertised, which adheres to current legislation, for a female personal carer for a quadriplegic woman. The role requires intimate personal care, and the woman suffers from severe anxiety around men. They will have to share the facilities in a small flat. An untransitioned transwoman applies.

Statistics are gathered to support a case that women are more likely to die in car accidents as airbags were designed and trialled using male body shapes as crash-test-dummies. The statistics show deaths in a combination of male born and female born women, so it appears that there is less of an issue the case for changing the design is lost. (any other sex-specific statistics can be substituted for this example if there is a technical issue that appears to weaken the principle that it represents). A woman objects to the way in which the figures are gathered, arguing that transwomen should be counted as male in the statistics.

In which, if any, of those cases would you support the woman over the transwoman?

I don't have a problem with debate Petunia. But I see the way trisher is talked to on here and frankly, I don't want to be spoken to that way.

Trisher is pulled up when she refuses to answer questions and attempts to divert the conversation, or when she accuses others of lying. In all other situations she is treated with civility, even when people are expected to repeat the same things over and over again. As you bark questions at posters then refuse to engage with their answers, I suppose it is no surprise that you see things differently.

I disagree Doodledog. I think she is rational and engages well. I don't see her barking anywhere. I do see rudeness from other posters, which is why I'm not discussing anymore. It isn't about agreeing with a specific poster. As it happens, I DO agree with trisher. But as long as others are respectful, I'm happy to discuss.

I COULD go through the posts and point out who is being rude, when. But why bother? It changes nothing.

Thank you gagajo. Debate doesn't happen if we stand on opposite sides and yell.
I was interested in you comment on effeminate gay men and butch lesbians. While for some transition is the right thing, perhaps a more accepting society should acknowledge the effeminate men and butch lesbians as part of lifes diversity. I feel so very anxious for these two groups who move towards the drastic medical solutions and all that that may entail.

I used to think that petunia, but they educated me to see that it was totally their choice to make, and not one for those of us not directly affected to be engaged in. And after all, not all trans individuals do head towards surgery. Some people chose to be non-binary.

I think we stand back and support, but don't get involved in their decision making process. After all, I didn't want the input of others when chosing a surgical process I went down a few years ago.

But none of those situations are to do with rights nor have I refused to answer the questions. You simply question my answers
So for the woman with a doctor anyone can for any reason refuse treatment by any person they feel uncomfortable with for any reason. They do not need to state a reason, So what right is being abused or what on earth has this to do with rights?
Transwomen are women or are you suggesting anyone entering any competition must produce evidence of their birth gender? If you are doing this than I suppose transmen will be able to enter any such competitions? I suppose it might be possible but really a complete complication for dealing with a community which is a tiny percentage.
You do have a bit of an obsession with genitals. I'm not sure why it is always women you have taking children swimming. There are an awful lot of single fathers about. Their children presumably are familiar with male genitals. The answer is of course larger cubicles for all families and many pools have these. What is the rights issue?
Carers and clients can clash over many matters. The client is the one who chooses, and it can be difficult to accommodate all the personal preferences which can be sometimes based on prejudice, but no one is forcing her to take on anyone. What is the rights issue?
I've answered many of these questions before.
So could you at least comment on the real subject of the thread and the way her views have been misrepresented and her career ignored?

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Here is MW complaining about the passing of the amendment which gave survivors of sexual violence the right to request the sex, not the gender, of the clinician who would examine them.

MW wanted this to centre transwomen (males) rather than the survivors (mostly females).

I think that's absolutely the case with adults, although I think trans adults are entitled to good quality health care so I hope that is the case, in terms of evidence based interventions. However in terms of children it is very different hence the ruling in the Keira Bell case and as far as I am aware there are other court cases pending. The information from whistleblowing at the tavistock was suggesting homophobia from parents as a reason for transition which obviously needs to be looked into.

Here are 2 transwomen stating clearly that the basis of their dysphoria was the stereotyped attitudes around them.
They do not actually believe that they are female.

I don't know who SophieXY is, but Kristina Harrison and Miranda Yardley have both spoken and written publicly about this and can easily be found online.

Do we make independent decisions though Gaga. We may decide to have fish and chips for tea, no one makes us, but how independent is the decision to say-have the covid vaccine, vote a particular political party, have gender affirmation surgery?
Some social circles admire tattoos, piercings etc. what if an individual is caught up in a social circle that emphasises the benefits of hormones, surgery etc. This is particularly true of children(under 18's) who notoriously are passionate, impulsive and impatient.. once on a path of intervention, its a one way street. Even before they are old enough to decide what they want in life.

I have grandchildren and my fear is that they will get caught up in gender issues. Affirming at school. Hormones and surgery, the endless battle to find your tribe. Our bodies are designed to function as they are.
As Judge Judy says- children aren't cooked until they are 25.

trisher if a woman asks for a female doctor or a female carer, she should not have to peer closely at the person who arrives to try to discern if that person is truly a female and whether she should speak up to ask for someone else.
Asking for a female should result in a female being provided or, at least, in an explanation as to why that cannot happen.
The woman's right to have her wishes respected (even if they can't be met) comes into conflict with a transwoman's right to be validated as a woman with no questions asked.

My view is that the woman's right is paramount in that situation because it is based on biological reality and because she is the one who is most at a disadvantage at that time.

petunia I wonder what would you do if one of your GCs from age 2 insisted they were not the gender their bodies indicated? I know someone whose child (girl) insisted she was a boy , wears boys clothes and now uses a boy's name. His parents have dealt with it as well as possible. He seems happy.

Fair enough trisher. But one of my grandchildren wants to fly. Desperately. Another one wants to be a fairy. Another thinks they are a unicorn. They all believe in Santa.
One of them thinks that the boy in her class is really a girl. He is six. What does being a girl mean to a six year old? What does being a girl actually mean? Really?

As a parent/grandparent, we need to recognise reality and guide our children accordingly. There is reality and there are wishes, dreams and hopes. We need to be the adult in the room and gently guide our children. Its not easy. But young children have no idea what sex/gender means. Most adults seem to struggle with sex and gender-see threads above! So how can we take the word of a child under 18 when it comes to life long decisions. Life long sterility and long-term medication does not compute when you are14. Too often children are set on the difficult road of gender affirmation.

And trisher. I have a niece who has always “played with boys toys”, dressed as a boy. Behaved as a boy. She is interested in boy type things.

At 30, she came out as lesbian. And good for her! She is not a failed boy. She is a woman. A female. Who happens to be a lesbian. Yay