Mridul Wadhwa - Male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis

Are you suggesting a term for transmen as well Doodledog aren't they the ones wanting to be "chest feeders" or "people who menstruate"? Aren't they just exampkles of how language changes?

Chewbacca and Doodledog - I agree with everything you have written. Some people have very strange ideas about their own sex!

trisher

Are you suggesting a term for transmen as well Doodledog aren't they the ones wanting to be "chest feeders" or "people who menstruate"? Aren't they just exampkles of how language changes?

Well, as I think that 'transwomen' will do nicely for, erm, transwomen, why would I not approve of 'transmen' for transmen? It's not a huge leap, is it?

Words are signifiers of concepts, so language changes as concepts change. Language says a lot about the culture in which it is spoken (as evidenced by the much-quoted '2000 words for snow' thing). As new ideas come along, new words are allocated to them, and the choices of words are important, which is why some words become taboo as attitudes change (eg the 'N' word). Words and language are important.

In my opinion, the insistence that transwomen be called women is indicative of the way in which some people see women as something replaceable - that can be made to incorporate men, whilst men remain as such. I also think that there are times when it is important to differentiate between males and females, and without a vocabulary with which to do that in a meaningful way, debate will be difficult, as it will be impossible to get beyond arguments about terminology.

I think it is deeply unkind to say that women are not allowed a word to describe themselves that excludes me. EXACTLY this. Why is it always women who are told that it is them who needs to move over, adjust their expectations, adapt to what men want, relinquish the rights that they've fought long and hard for? We're told to accept men into facilities that women need, through no fault of their own, but to be protected because of their sex; should now be repurposed as a validation tool, for the very people they they were provided to protect us from in the first place! And when we object, we're told to "be kind", accept the fact that men will now have greater ease to put you and your children at risk in the very places that you thought you were safe. Be kind is an oxymoron in the context of men, presenting as women, whilst in full possession of everything that makes them male.

To those who object to MW being referred to as "him" because it's such a small ask ...... no, it really isn't a small ask. He is a male. It isn't discrimination it is biology

GagaJo

Socially, we call CARS she. No one cares about that.

It's irrelevant.

A car, boat or even a male cat called she wouldn't be put in charge of a Rape Crisis Centre.

Natal women are at no risk from transgender women? Would you want to share a changing room or prison cell with this man?

A right-wing militia leader, facing life in prison for orchestrating the 2017 Minnesota mosque blast in the United States, now identifies as a woman, as per court documents.

Emily Claire Hari, the 50-year-old leader of the group ‘White Rabbit,’ who was previously known as Michael Hari, alleged that a "combination of gender dysphoria and right-wing misinformation" fuelled her "inner conflict" during the time she was convicted for bombing the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Centre. She has requested the judge to legally acknowledge her transgender identity, the Star Tribune reported. Elkins argued before US district judge Donovan Frank to give Hari no more than a 30-year prison sentence instead of the life term.

In November 2020, a federal jury convicted Hari after she was found guilty of all five counts related to the bombing of the mosque. She was charged for damaging property because of its religious character, forcibly obstructing the free exercise of religious beliefs, conspiracy to commit felonies with fire and explosives, using a destructive device in a crime of violence, and possessing an unregistered destructive device.

As per reports, on 4 August Hari picked up her co-conspirators Joe Morris (25) and Michael McWhorter (31) in a rented pickup truck. The trio was carrying assault rifles, a sledgehammer* *and a 20-pound bomb. Under Hari's supervision, Morris and McWhorter broke open one of the windows and tossed the bomb inside the imam's office during the morning prayer.

So basically, he has no tolerance of Muslims and the Islamic faith but expects the tolerance of women to share their space with a terrorist.

Why is it necessary to post instances of what is clearly a disturbed and sick individual to support your views on transgender issues?
I don't suppose a Muslim man would want to share a cell with him either
I'm sure there are violent individuals of every gender. Of course they should be provided with the most secure accommodation,

Why is it necessary to post instances of what is clearly a disturbed and sick individual to support your views on transgender issues?

I would have thought that was obvious trisher. Why shouldn't it be highlighted that men are deliberately claiming transgender issues to avoid the consequences of their actions? Why shouldn't it be highlighted that men are using transgender issues to gain access to women's spaces? Why shouldn't women be told that the spaces that they had previously believed to be safe was now being changed to validate a man's wishes? Do you think that this should have been hushed up? Not spoken about? Should women just keep quiet, accept all and be kind?

So if you had met MW in real life where she is seen as a woman you would have referred to her as "she" because when using pronouns we mostly go by appearance.

I don't know how I would perceive MW in real life. It might be obvious that he is not a she, I can't tell.
Obviously, if I didn't know a person was trans I'd have to go by appearance.

Emily Claire Hari certainly appears to be a he.

Have you any indication where this individual is to be held Chewbacca or any indication that he will be permitted freedom of any kind? Or is it once again scaremongering?
I've posted before most paedophiles are men, but we don't treat all men as paedophiles because of that. Can you explain to me why all transgender people must suffer because of one sick person.

FarNorth if it is obvious that MW is a transwomen then she wouldn't have needed to say anything at interview would she?

Ok trisher forget that one sick individual and have a listen to a retired prison governor, Rhona Hotchkiss, on what she has experienced of transwomen in women's prisons.

youtu.be/KpfTBEXqGQM

What the interviewer perceives and what I perceive might not be the same.
Since I know that MW is trans, I would never perceive him as a woman.

I've posted before most paedophiles are men, but we don't treat all men as paedophiles because of that.

We do have safeguarding measures to try to reduce the risk of paedophiles accessing children.

FarNorth

^I've posted before most paedophiles are men, but we don't treat all men as paedophiles because of that.^

We do have safeguarding measures to try to reduce the risk of paedophiles accessing children.

Exactly and there should obviously be safeguarding in prisons to protect anyone. That doesn't support your argument that transwomen are men or that we need protection from them.
It was a belief held for a long time that gay men shouldn't be allowed to serve in the armed forces because they would assault or approach other men. It was unfounded.
Of course there are individuals in every group of people who will harm others, but we provide safeguarding and assessment so that most people can live their lives, and those who present any danger can be properly identified and seperated. None of that impacts on one transwomen who has been helping women deal with violence for over 16 years.

The terms man and women transman and transwomen would be a perfectly acceptable compromise.
No one would need to introduce themselves as that.
I have never met anyone (other than at meetings where people have wanted to announce their sexual preference) who defines their sexual choice as part of the greeting, whether, lesbian or gay or non-binary or even heterosexual.
People would be taken as and referred to as the sex they present unless they do something to make that questionable. Transmen or transwomen not making obvious the fact that they are not the sex they appear to be would have no problems. He and she would be naturally used.

For the majority of trans, I would think that would make little difference as they aspire to live the life they have chosen without causing problems for themselves or others.

Where the term transman or transwoman should appear is on job applications and identity documents including medical records.
That would mean that jobs ring-fenced for women would be given to women.
It would obviate the need to lie by omission e.g. by MW, who presents as a woman, but whose choice of words and actions towards women declare him to be a man, ergo ‘he’.
It would remove the sheer stupidity of a woman with mental health issues exacerbated by the presence of men being called transphobic and threatened with removal from treatment because she is further traumatised by a transwoman, admitted to the ward who is displaying quite blatantly that he is no such thing.

TWANW and TMANM!
However TW would live as they choose and be called what they choose. The problems arise when they want their rights to erode the rights of women.

Can you explain to me why all transgender people must suffer because of one sick person.

Possibly for the same reason that all women must suffer because a few men want the same privileges, rights and safe spaces that women have had to have in place to protect them from them in the first place.

Have you any indication where this individual is to be held Chewbacca or any indication that he will be permitted freedom of any kind? Or is it once again scaremongering?

I'm struggling to believe your naivety here trisher. Hari is not only asking the courts for a lighter prison sentence due to his inner conflict being the cause for his terrorist acts, he's also asking for an "amended prison placement" because of him being transgender. In other words, he doesn't want to be in a prison with other men; he wants to be where all the women are. Share a cell with them. Share shower facilities with them. Share toilets and changing rooms with them. You will never be able to convince me that this will be in the women's best interests.

On pronouns : christianrethinker.wordpress.com/2019/10/18/what-does-it-cost-to-use-trans-pronouns/?fbclid=IwAR2vMQQpbguPCZA_ZBW2fR0yp_bO3CJb2Q40R4le3aiVOK3N5Pwfce0hl9E

You seem to have forgotten Chewbacca that he wanted to kill Muslims too or is that irrelevant in your trans hating world?

Thanks FarNorth, the last bit says it all for me:

If identity is so important, why do you think we should lose ours? As for me, I am not willing to pay this price.

I think we've wandered off the point a bit - that bloke (for bloke he most certainly is (even trisher is calling him 'he' ?) is an outlier by any standards, surely?

Having said that, whilst I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, the majority of prisoners are, by definition, capable of dubious behaviour, so the more safeguards for women the better.

The point, though, as Chewbacca rightly says, is that the reason women have safe spaces is to protect us from men, so it seems perverse to allow them into those spaces as soon as they say the magic words 'I identify as a woman.'

Ooh Christian thinkers would they be the same sort who wanted to use aversion therapy on Gay people?
Or the ones who think women belong in the home?
Or the ones who believe abortion should be illegal
I'm not about to start believing anything posted by Christian thinkers their prejudice isn't acceptable.

You seem to have forgotten Chewbacca that he wanted to kill Muslims too or is that irrelevant in your trans hating world?

trisher Such is your haste to pick fault in any post that doesn't support your agenda, you spectacularly failed to properly read my post at 15.18, I will draw your attention again to the final paragraph of my post which states: So basically, he has no tolerance of Muslims and the Islamic faith but expects the tolerance of women to share their space with a terrorist.

Please explain, how I have "forgotten" anything?

Chewbacca

Natal women are at no risk from transgender women? Would you want to share a changing room or prison cell with this man?

A right-wing militia leader, facing life in prison for orchestrating the 2017 Minnesota mosque blast in the United States, now identifies as a woman, as per court documents.

Emily Claire Hari, the 50-year-old leader of the group ‘White Rabbit,’ who was previously known as Michael Hari, alleged that a "combination of gender dysphoria and right-wing misinformation" fuelled her "inner conflict" during the time she was convicted for bombing the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Centre. She has requested the judge to legally acknowledge her transgender identity, the Star Tribune reported. Elkins argued before US district judge Donovan Frank to give Hari no more than a 30-year prison sentence instead of the life term.

In November 2020, a federal jury convicted Hari after she was found guilty of all five counts related to the bombing of the mosque. She was charged for damaging property because of its religious character, forcibly obstructing the free exercise of religious beliefs, conspiracy to commit felonies with fire and explosives, using a destructive device in a crime of violence, and possessing an unregistered destructive device.

As per reports, on 4 August Hari picked up her co-conspirators Joe Morris (25) and Michael McWhorter (31) in a rented pickup truck. The trio was carrying assault rifles, a sledgehammer* *and a 20-pound bomb. Under Hari's supervision, Morris and McWhorter broke open one of the windows and tossed the bomb inside the imam's office during the morning prayer.

So basically, he has no tolerance of Muslims and the Islamic faith but expects the tolerance of women to share their space with a terrorist.

It's as if we've gone back to the 1950's, Chewbacca, when women were supposed to know their place, be grateful for crumbs from men's tables and generally be compliant as men were Head of the Households, Head of the Companies, MPs, not aspire to a university education and girls were taught that their ambition was to be a good wife.
Love, Honour and Obey.

If you can't get today's women to know their place then we'll try another way.