Trans children

I really don't think children ARE being influenced by adults Peasblossom. There may be a tiny minority who are, but most parents want their children to be 'normal', whatever that is. Most families are as horrified as some on here are, at the thought of having a child have such an 'abnormal' (I hate that word and don't feel that way, BUT...) belief. Let's face it, most of us just want our children to fit in, feel loved and to get a good education.

I honestly think the system of sex and gender as a binary belief system is in flux and is undergoing a sea change in our society/culture. I don't know why. I'm not a biologist/sociologist.

I think in the past, as we know, our society wasn't so child centred, it was more parent centred. And what parents said, went. A bit like what Galaxy described:

'victorians tied the left hands behind childrens back, so damaging the body because of a behaviour they thought was wrong, a bit like giving drugs and surgery to children because of a behaviour society sees as wrong.'

Any insistence of gender anomoly, like homosexuality (as in the classic novel, The Well of Loneliness) would have been stamped on HARD by families. No one wanted a 'pervert' for a child. Now, when a 2 year old girl says 'I'm a boy.', most of us just think it's experimentation. My GS has certainly said a LOT of times, 'I'm a princess.' No one blinks and eyelid. We all just carry on.

I’m not denying that individual trisher. It is something I have seen.

Also the majority who are gender fluid in their early years.

My concern is that this fluidity is being misunderstood and that young children are then being influenced by adults who have little understanding of the development of children’s thought processes.

Doesn’t it concern you that there are growing numbers of those who believe that adults pressurised then into a decision before they were ready?

And how can we get the balance right between support and undue influence?

I think it's impossible to comment on an individual family and not really something I want to do to be honest, the thing is that many who present this behaviour will desist and that's the issue that needs to be talked about. Also the issue that there are those who dont desist, transition then realise it was a mistake. The figures in particular with regards to girl to boy transition arent anything that anyone can ignore. It would be a complete betrayal of these children to pretend that the statistics arent very unusual

Peasblossom I could have posted any of that. What I hadn't seen until it happened was a girl who as soon as she could vocalise insisted she was a boy. This in spite of having parents who were very easy going, sharing baths with other girls and boys after messy play and swimming with the same children. If you haven't seen it you don't realise how different it is.

Well, any of us who’ve worked (or played!) with young children know how easy it is to influence and persuade them.

I wouldn’t deny that little boy his certainty utvI definitely wouldn’t try to influence the vast majority of children who are only experimenting or trying to gain an understanding of gender and roles.

My concern is that there is a vast difference between supporting the transgender individual and actively promoting a trans agenda amongst young children.

My observations are that most children will experiment n role play and to a lesser extent outside it in being different genders and with different gender roles.

I’ve observed boys stuffing something up their jumpers to be pregnant, being mummy and breastfeeding the doll. Girls being father or boyfriend. They weren’t transgender or gay, just trying it on for size.

If an environment is open to it they will sometimes declare they are a boy or a girl for a period of time, revert and then come back to it.

However there’s seems to be a tendency to seize on a period of natural experimentation and make as strong assumptions about transitioning as others do about how they should behave within their birth gender.

We already know that some who have transitioned are now speaking about the pressure that was put upon them to decide before they were ready and that workers in clinics are raising concerns.

Should we not listen and and critically examine what is happening. And whether there is a way to support some without damaging others.

I think one reason for dressing boys in dresses until they were at least five was toilet training. It's a darn sight easier to teach when the child is virtually naked around it's nether regions! No pants or knickers would be worn under the dress.

It’s not just about gender roles though is it? The child was told they could “be” a boy, not told they could wear what they liked, change their name etc, but would still be a biological girl. That is the truth, it’s lying to pretend otherwise.

It would be lying to say you can become a boy if you are a girl. As far as I am aware that is currently supposed to be part of the counselling that young people with gender dysphoria receive.

Why is it lying to call a child the gender he/she wants to be vegansrock we all agree gender is a social construct.

trisher would you lie to a child in order not to upset them? The truth sometimes hurts but pretending someone is something they aren’t isn’t doing them any favours in the long term.

Peasblossom breeching boys at about 4 or 5 happened well into the late 19th and early 20th century. There are many photographs where the child in a dress is a boy. One of the reasons for it is said to be the high mortality rate in boys, dressing them as a girl was thought to give protection. I think it might also have been to do with it being easier to toilet train a child in a dress. My late FIL remembered wearing a dress and his first pair of trousers.

I too have experience of working with young children and I had never met one who insisted so vehemently that they were not the gender they had been assigned. He wasn't exloring anything he stated that he was a boy.

vegansrock so would you insist on telling the child he was still a girl, no matter how much that upset him?

“Why would anyone want to change his life, make him upset, or insist he became something he isn't and doesn't want to be?“
But s/he has tried to become something s/he isn’t hasn’t s/he? Pretending s/he is a boy is encouraging the fantasy that we can change our biological destiny. No reason why s/he can’t use a different name/ wear different clothes / have a girlfriend whilst still acknowledging the fact that s/ he is a girl.

If anybody is interested there’s a very good thesis by McKeon on “The emergence of gender difference” in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Before that childhood as a recognised stage did not exist and there was only Infancy and Adulthood. Infants, boy or girl, were treated the same, mostly till around their 7th birthday when they were breached or corseted. If you look at paintings it’s impossible to tell whether the very young children in the family are boys or girls. They are all in “petticoats”.

Personally, having spent my working life with children aged 2 to 7, I would say that any concept of gender comes from outside influences in the early years.

Watching young children develop their thinking is fascinating, not least because of the erroneous (but logical) conclusions they reach.

A girl with an older brother will often think that she will grow a penis as she gets older, just as she will grow taller. Sometimes that she will turn into a boy.
A boy with female siblings will think and sometimes be anxious that his penis will disappear.
A little girl with a baby brother thought there was something badly wrong with him because of his “growths” and her experience of a grandparent with a facial cancer.
Some children declared they were different genders on different days, depending on what they felt like.
I have had “dogs” and “sheep” in my room too.

I think early childhood is all about exploring the world and their place in it. It’s a fluid, puzzling time. I don’t like to see children forced into their birth gender mode by parents with limited expectations of what boys and girls are and do.

But equally I think it would be an enormous mistake to place a change of gender on a young child who is probably only experimenting and exploring the concept f gender or, indeed, what it is to be human.

I think we are jumping too soon in regard to young children.

The child has lived as a boy and is accepted as a boy and is happy.
Why would anyone want to change his life, make him upset, or insist he became something he isn't and doesn't want to be?

Why can the child not live in exactly the way they now are, while remembering that they are a girl?

Why do adults not want to promote that way of being, rather than one that encourages the false belief that one must change ones body to fit society's expectations?

The future for this child, if they continue to believe they are a boy, is likely to include medication which can very badly affect their physical health.

I certainly don't want that for any child.

I’m loving the non binary. I struggle a bit with saying they instead of she or he but I actually think it does take the pressure of youngsters who simply don’t want sexual pressures. Nobody’s business then.

vegansrock I agree with all of your last post.

My unpopular view is that it is impossible to change biological sex - even with surgery a chromosomally normal male / female will still have male / female chromosomes. Gender stereotypes should be challenged all the way and children should be allowed to play/wear what they like without gendered constraints. Parents going along with pretending that the child is the opposite sex when they aren’t isn’t the only way of being supportive. It’s a parents’ job to protect their child, I would consider medical intervention at a young age to be damaging.

Zoejory

I did read the article. I found it rather laborious.

It was long. It's part of the Guardian long read series. I've not come across one before.

I did read the article. I found it rather laborious.

We need to be careful before slapping labels on children and forcing them into directions they may not want to go down.

That's the point though. If you read the article, the parents were VERY hesitant. It was totally coming from the child, against the parents best instincts.

I was a tomboy too. Never mastered the loo standing up though! Cowboys and Indians and trains. I was the son my father always wanted and loved helping him maintain the car. It was Robert Horton and Adam Faith who changed me and got me out of trousers!

vegansrock

I was what was called a “tomboy” as a child- hated dolls, climbed trees , wore shorts, insisted on a “butch” haircut, if I’d known about transgender I’m sure I’d have insisted I was a boy. When puberty hit it all changed. Thank god I didn’t have the option of drug treatment. Clothes, hair , toys, fine - children should try everything and not be constricted. I’m not convinced about parents supporting a child in their every whim though would you support your anorexic child in starving herself- no, you’d seek psychiatric help. I’ve heard of cases where adults “identify” as children- do we just say fine you can go to nursery- no we’d think they needed psychiatric help.

You sound just like me! I was very much a tomboy, even though we're not supposed to say that any more. But I too had the short hair, wore shorts or trousers all the time. Wanted to be called Keith. (Keith?!) My parents were great. They didn't say anything particularly but got me the cars and garages and train sets. They just went along with it and it was fine. I even used to stand up to use the loo!

This went on for quite a few years. From the age of 3 until I was about 11 and discovered David Essex and that was the end of Keith

We need to be careful before slapping labels on children and forcing them into directions they may not want to go down.

Gosh, Vegan, this doesn't happen very often. I agree with you!

Vegansrock, the only student I've ever had who has had 100% support from family, friends and school had a massive upswing in their mental health once they had come out as trans and were accepted whole heartedly. It was a pleasure to see.

He openly had a girlfriend and glowed, joining in with his peers on social occasions. Always a nice student, he went from being a bit of a wall flower to being quite out going. Something that I assume was always in there but was squashed by being in the closet.

I think a parent could treat the child as they wish to be treated in terms of clothing, haircuts etc, but would need to find out exactly what it is they think will be different if they were a boy/ girl. I doubt if a very young child would be able to articulate that, so maybe ongoing psychological help should be more forthcoming. What they shouldn’t be doing is “supporting” them down the medical route - after all this wouldn’t have been available in the past, and I am not convinced mental health issues have diminished.