Trans children

I thought it was really interesting GagaJo and the insistance of the child which the parents recognised but not without difficulty was fascinating, especially that she managed to persuade the children in her nursery to call her "she".

I do wonder what would all the people posting negative comments about trans children or going on about the gender norms for society do if their grans child insisted they were a different gender?

Galaxy No 4 year old is being given any drugs, but yes I was referring to tying up the left hand, which made many children suffer from a stutter and all sorts of nervous habits. Denying a trans child their right to be the gender they believe they are is actually much worse.

I mean it's very personal for the child and the family and that why I am really reluctant to make comments on the subject of children, I think there are too many people using the subject for various agendas, I obviously am not talking about the families when I say this.

Aveline

My DGS went through a phase when he was at Nursery where he liked wearing the 'princess' dress from the dressing up box. It was his favourite. His Mum and the staff sensibly just let him do that. He soon tired of this and moved on to other activities.
I'd hate to think what might have happened if he'd been at one of today's 'woke' establishments.

I imagine what would happen would be what happened / happens with my GS. He wears his princess dress and roars around the house in it, with his dinosaurs and trucks. He totally ignores the doll and uses the pushchair as another car. His play is integrated.

A bit like you can't force a gay person to be straight, you can't force gender. This terrible example is evidence of that. His penis was accidentally severed during circumcision and it was decided to castrate him and raise him as a girl. Some of you may remember the case.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11814300

As I said I find it very hard to read Faye because of the past virulent misogyny, I dont think it's a personal piece at all, I think its using the personal to make a political point.

Isn't that the difference between macro and micro though Galaxy? It's a personal piece. To try to help those who don't understand the experience?

As much as I'm trans positive, I'm very glad my GS is so obviously a boy. Stereotypically, despite being raised by two rampant feminists. Because it is SUCH a hard road to tread.

trisher

If you haven't seen it I suppose you can't appreciate it. Friend of GD has insisted he is a boy since he could speak. He was labelled a girl at birth. His parents are an ordinary couple, laid back mum who is a bit disorganised, dad who is an electrician. Their second child is a girl who is happy to be so.
The child has lived as a boy and is accepted as a boy and is happy.
Why would anyone want to change his life, make him upset, or insist he became something he isn't and doesn't want to be?

I'm reminded of the Victorians forcing left handed children to use their right hand.

I also have a friend like this. She tried to just carry on as normal. See it as just trying on a princess dress (as someone mentioned above), because childhood is about experimentation. But the child was insistant and became distressed when they were referred to as a girl. So then she tried just going along with it at home, but of course, it leached out into nursery and then primary school.

In the end, she talked to the teacher who was actually really understanding. But that is primary school.

I've only encountered teenagers who obviously know themselves well. They don't always articulate it to staff but all the students I've known have had a support group of understanding and supportive friends. I know that isn't always the case though.

I thought it lacked any in depth reporting to be honest, completely ignored the I think 7 thousand fold increase in young girls transitioning to boys with no apparent increase in older women transitioning (which if it was due to increased acceptance you would think would manifest itself) and no mention that some of the European countries are stepping back from the affirmation model. I will be honest and say that I find it very difficult to read Shon Fayes articles because their words to women keep ringing in my ears 'enjoy your erasure' was the phrase I think.

I thought the parents demonstrated the absolute confusion as to firstly, why the child felt that way. Then the confusion as to how to deal with it. And also acknowledging the lack of acceptance from other adults. AND (too many 'ands') of the relative ease of coping with it with a young child but of the huge complications that lay ahead.

Any comments about the article? I thought it was really good.

Doodledog

It’s not an area in which I have any sort of expertise, but I do find it worrying that children are taught that some things are for boys and others for girls, and that if they enjoy the ones that are supposedly ‘wrong’ that they need to change gender.

That puts society-created gender roles before the needs of children, which seems to me very wrong. Just let them be themselves, and stop having so many gendered expectations.

When I was young there were different hair partings for girls, and buttons were put on one side of coats for girls and the other for boys. I don’t know anyone who would do that now. Things can change, and IMO it is better to change these expectations than to expect children to change their gender to fit with the norms.

Good post, Doodledog ???

I just wonder if part of the problem is the distressing trend over the past decade or two to actually straitjacket children into gender roles because of the relentless marketing of toys and clothes as 'boys' toys', 'girls'toys, blue for boys, pink for girls?

I'm sure that, despite the hair partings and button placement, during the 70s we tried to bring our children up in a fairly gender neutral fashion, and the toy departments in shops just contained 'toys', not differentiated by sex or colour. Or am I 586recalling it wrongly? Was it just me and my friends?

I mean, with respect to Katie59, needed encouragement to play with the boys, he was good at sports so that helped., WTF has being sporty got to do with being a boy? Girls are good at sports, too.

(I have to confess that I didn't read the Guardian article yesterday because I couldn't face it.)

Do you mean when victorians tied the left hands behind childrens back, so damaging the body because of a behaviour they thought was wrong, a bit like giving drugs and surgery to children because of a behaviour society sees as wrong.

JaneJudge did your son at any time insist he was a girl? Mine dressed up but none of them claimed to be anything but boys.

1 point for hetty

If you haven't seen it I suppose you can't appreciate it. Friend of GD has insisted he is a boy since he could speak. He was labelled a girl at birth. His parents are an ordinary couple, laid back mum who is a bit disorganised, dad who is an electrician. Their second child is a girl who is happy to be so.
The child has lived as a boy and is accepted as a boy and is happy.
Why would anyone want to change his life, make him upset, or insist he became something he isn't and doesn't want to be?

I'm reminded of the Victorians forcing left handed children to use their right hand.

All my sons went through a period of dressing up in girls clothes and the one in particular wanted to be a girl. . I remember having a conversation with the wanting to be a girl son and saying you don't need to fit into what society demands of us as boy or girl. You are allowed to be a boy and wear head bands, get your nails painted, wear pink, grow your hair long, play with ponies and still be a boy and he just accepted that. I don't know where it passes over into being something that needs to be looked at by a psychiatrist.

Esspee,Hetty and GrannyG 100%.

In my opinion a good post Doodledog. Reflects my own thoughts and reminds us of rather silly past constraints.

It’s not an area in which I have any sort of expertise, but I do find it worrying that children are taught that some things are for boys and others for girls, and that if they enjoy the ones that are supposedly ‘wrong’ that they need to change gender.

That puts society-created gender roles before the needs of children, which seems to me very wrong. Just let them be themselves, and stop having so many gendered expectations.

When I was young there were different hair partings for girls, and buttons were put on one side of coats for girls and the other for boys. I don’t know anyone who would do that now. Things can change, and IMO it is better to change these expectations than to expect children to change their gender to fit with the norms.

My DGS went through a phase when he was at Nursery where he liked wearing the 'princess' dress from the dressing up box. It was his favourite. His Mum and the staff sensibly just let him do that. He soon tired of this and moved on to other activities.
I'd hate to think what might have happened if he'd been at one of today's 'woke' establishments.

sorry-forgot the link

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4331129-Guardian-long-read-by-Shon-Faye-about-trans-children

One thing for sure if a child is being bullied for being either effeminate or butch and feels that it has the wrong body, becoming “trans” is only going to increase the bullying.
One of my sons has “come out” as gay, looking back he was different, needed encouragement to play with the boys, he was good at sports so that helped.

theres a thread about this on mumsnet. interesting to see the opinion of a different demographic

I agree Esspee and Hetty. To my mind it's the idiot adults that think it's trendy to follow the latest thing, just to be different. God alone knows what damage they're doing to the kids. As Hetty says, let them be kids !

Let children just be children, let them play, let them have fun.

It's a shame that our 'society' (just people in general) puts so much emphasis on gender differences. Even small children feel compelled to conform to one, instead of being allowed to be what they naturally are - just kids.