Latest from Mridul Wadhwa

Women should not be forced into defending the preservation of women-only spaces they have been entitled to use for many, many years.
People such as Mridwal Wadhwa should be campaigning for the introduction of individual toilet cubicles and changing rooms where he may feel safe.
Campaigning for safer open public spaces has very little to do with who uses male/female public toilets, and as for leading to confining women to spaces where they feel safe: rubbish.

If some TRAs are trans then they are being blamed.
So if some women are axe murderers, does anyone disapproving of axe murder blame all women.

If some frogs are green, are all green things frogs?

The lack of logic is breathtaking.

When you say ‘ those challenging gender norms’, do you mean gender-critical feminists? I’m checking, as I’m guessing not, but I would say that we are doing exactly that - the clue is in the name.

Like you, I worry about fundamentalism and the rise of the far-right; but I think that in both cases the emphasis is on maintaining gender roles, to keep women at home and doing ‘female’ things, and it is in their interests to maintain the fiction that if one enjoys those things, one must ‘be’ of that gender, rather than allowing an expansion of the roles that the sexes (or genders in this case) can fulfil.

Doodledogand you accuse me of twisting things!!!
Those challenging gender norms are the people who choose to dress as they choose, who refuse to be tied by what genitalia they may have, who cannot be identified by the way they look. They may be non-binary, trans, cis, butch, femme or any other gender term you choose to use. As far as I can see gender critical people (I refuse to call them feminists) just want to tie us into some old fasioned concepts and are using the same tactics that have always been used by those promoting discrimination. Spreading fear through rumour and exaggeration.
The first step in maintaining gender roles is to isolate and identify as the enemy those who are other. Once you have done that you can then begin to build on what each gender must be. As I said it's a short step from saying women need safe spaces to saying women are in danger everywhere and must keep to certain spaces. Until we have a society that cares about everyone's safety and we are able to walk where we want safely and without fear of attack this emphasis on toilets and changing rooms is just a distraction.

It’s a good deviation. I’m concerned about women being confined. I could even see your argument that it’s the same, because women who don’t remain confined are in danger from men outside.
It’s not the same though, because women are free here, but women are in danger from some men and some transwomen who go into female only spaces where women should be able to feel safe.

No twisting from me, trisher. I was just checking, as your last few posts have been increasingly difficult to understand. I didn’t think we would see it in the same way, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree entirely, predictably, and think that the idea that people have to ‘change gender’ is regressive (although I respect the rights of those who choose to do so).

I am not ‘identifying enemies’ amongst trans people either. I do fear TRAs, however. As has been said, they are by no means all trans. As ever with this sort of thing, they tend to be from the sidelines - those with no skin in the game who enjoy being seen to be ‘supportive’, whilst also enjoying the chance to shout down women who speak against them, and put those women back in their place by ruining careers and reputations. As you seem to admit, that is a one- way street, and it’s horrible.

trisher Those challenging gender norms are the people who choose to dress as they choose, who refuse to be tied by what genitalia they may have, who cannot be identified by the way they look.
This IS the GC position, wear what you want. If you're a man but want to follow stereotypical hobbies and behaviours or dress in a stereotypically female way do it, don't be dictated to by your genitals, but it won't change your sex. Gender is a social and cultural construct, do away with it completely. That's the "critical" part.

As far as I can see gender critical people (I refuse to call them feminists) just want to tie us into some old fasioned concepts this is plainly ridiculous, GC feminists absolutely believe in moving away from the cloying stereotypes that transgender ideology seems determined to drag us back to. I do find it hypocritical that while the mantra is trans people are what they say they are, you don't afford the same courtesy to GC feminists.

Well said, Rosie.

Good response Rosie.
Doodledog your last paragraph sums up what’s going on very well.

Anyone else seen the latest from the Lancet? If proof was needed for women - adult human females - being erased from life, here it is, contrasted with how men are regarded. We are bodies with vaginas, not even people. Men are…er…men. The misogyny is overwhelming.

I did SueDonim sadly it just keeps getting worse. GC people are accused of being obsessed with genitals, here a medical publication reduces women to just that. Strange how men aren't prostate havers, scrotum owners, bodies with a penis.

Yes, and you don’t hear the nonsense from transmen. It’s all about men wanting to bully women, supported by women who have internalised the idea that men should be able to do whatever they want.

There have always been women so desperate for male approval that they side with men every time, and this is more of the same. I don’t think it’s necessarily done consciously - it’s so ingrained that it gets confused with support for the underdog - but it’s actually deeply internalised misogyny.

I’m sure we all know left-leaning, supportive women, who see through it, though, and have had enough. The sort who are supportive of LGBT rights, and may have campaigned for them when that were needed. The sort who still are accepting and supportive of transwomen who join their Art group or work in the office next door, and who are outspoken about sexism, racism and homophobia. They tend to be older, not interested in humouring men, not bothered by being called names and not scared off by bullies with the power to wreck their careers. Many on this thread just have to look in the mirror to see one?. I think the worm will turn, as more younger people see through the doublespeak and say ‘enough’s enough’.

Good concise analysis Doodledog. I do hope your final sentence comes true before too long. Regaining the rights women fought so hard for will become more difficult as time passes.

That’s true, unfortunately, Rosie.

I think the real problem Doodledog is that in seeking what you think are quite reasonable adjustments you are allying yourself with absolute opponents of any differences. People who want real change in society, and not for equality or for difference, but to ensure that the status quo is maintained and that rights are even rolled back. Today it is the trans agenda, tomorrow it will be abortion and after that marriage and subservience.

The idea that this is somehow women siding with men shows how only one side of the whole debate is ever considered by some people. This is women siding with those who are different, some through choice, some simply because of the way they are. It's women saying you should be free to live your life as you choose.

Most of the left wing women I know realise the dangers inherent in choosing to restrict freedom of choice and in legislating against minorities. It's the right and centre women who think some discrimination is OK. I'm sure they mean no harm. The problem is that having thrown in their lot with the Christian far right they will realise too late what is happening. The evidence of this is plain in history when the well meaning have found the consequences of their supporting discrimination were truly dreadful.

There are already an increasing number of younger people who see through what is happening.
The situation is not helped though by some ‘citizenship’ lessons being taught in a local high school.

So you keep saying Mollygo. I will admit there are a growing number of evangelist churches opening in UK and their children have narrow views.

Ooh! Touched a nerve there did I trisher?You, rather surprisingly, know more about evangelistic churches than I do. Hey ho. Let’s have another deviation then.

I am sure those who dont believe in the reality of sex are caring kind people. They dont realise the harm they are doing when they imply gay men are bigots for not wanting relationships with women (after all it's the same as finding out a man has erectile dysfunction) or talk about wearing trousers being an indicator of sex, they just dont realise they are playing into the hands of the far right . Bless them though.

People who want real change in society, and not for equality or for difference, but to ensure that the status quo is maintained and that rights are even rolled back.

Can you rephrase this, please? I can't make sense of it.

Today it is the trans agenda, tomorrow it will be abortion and after that marriage and subservience.

See, this is what I worry about too, but from the opposite view. I think that if women continue to be 'people with cervixes' (ie 'breeders') we are much further along the road to subservience than when we were adult human females (ie people).

Politicians are tied up in knots about it all - even Keir was wriggling on Andrew Marr this morning. I'm pretty sure that (as a sensible man) he must have been privately rolling his eyes at the idea of having to avoid agreeing that 'adult human female' is an infinitely more sensible way to describe women, but such is the power of the TRAs that he couldn't do it.

Most of the left wing women I know realise the dangers inherent in choosing to restrict freedom of choice and in legislating against minorities. It's the right and centre women who think some discrimination is OK. I'm sure they mean no harm. The problem is that having thrown in their lot with the Christian far right they will realise too late what is happening. The evidence of this is plain in history when the well meaning have found the consequences of their supporting discrimination were truly dreadful.

It must be hard work making everyone you know fit with one of the theories you have learnt about politics, feminism and history, trisher. Do you never just enjoy people's company? There is no way that my feelings fit with the Christian far right - that is actually laughable - and neither am I stumbling naively towards an accidental collision (or collusion, for that matter).

How is it 'well-meaning' (rather a patronising phrase) to believe that women are adult human females? When did that stop being an accepted fact? And why?

To be fair realising that many on the left couldnt care less

I would like to pretend I was posting with passion/anger there. But the truth is I was having a drink of coffee and accidentally pressed send with my cup.
But it has been an absolute shock to my system realising how little women matter to some on the left, and the misogyny that has been carefully hidden has also been quite unnerving. So I can see how tempting it is to find a reason for people holding an opinion you find discriminatory. It's easier to think we are somehow all in thrall to the far right.

Galaxy Really??? Back to the" you want to force people to have sex with someone" argument?? It's pathetic.
Mollygo no nerve. There have always been reactionary young people. And yes Evangelist churches are booming- 4 opened in my area before Covid-all with young families with many children. They are welcoming, kind and do good work. I just don't want them deciding how we are governed because some of their views are very restrictive

Doodledog if you don't appreciate the anti-trans links with the far right and the Christian church look at the US. You can find strategies there advocated by the right wing Christians to fight trans people. One of the things they say must be done is seperating the T from the LGBQ movement, and it is happening.

The People statement means that the change the alt right and Christianity want is one where their views dominate and freedoms are restricted.

Feminists who oppose trans people are getting into bed with some very strange people and it is scary.

Sorry if repeating the discussion makes you uncomfortable trisher. The far right thing is as laughable as the no debate strategy. Neither worked but the more people see it the better I suppose.

Also I dont oppose trans people so please stop saying that.