Shemima Begum

What would she actually be tried for here?
As GG13 said, drug traffickers are usually tried and jailed abroad, but are acts seen as atrocities here regarded the same way where she is.
Shamima apparently wants to come back to stand trial here.
What does she think she should be tried for? Anyone know?
Does she think she’s guilty, in which case she should be jailed where she is.
If she will be tried e.g. for supporting ISIS, then all the claims of ‘grooming’, “too young to know what she was doing” “didn’t realise the bombs would kill women and children” will be dragged up by her defence council and she’ll probably be freed on compassionate grounds.
Then she’ll be here to spread whatever she feels is the truth.
At least at the moment she will serve as a deterrent to others who think they can copy her actions, however unfair that may seem.

GillT57

Can I just point out that thinking Ms Begum should come back to UK to stand trial, does not mean I do not abhor her behaviour, and I feel every sympathy with the families of ISIS victims. It is not as simple a matter as some tabloid journalists make out.

I totally agree, I was just about to post something similar.

My heart and prayers lay firmly with the victims and their families of Daesh initiated atrocities.

This is not a clear cut either/or situation which is why a trial in a neutral Country could be the best thing for all concerned.

GillT57

Can I just point out that thinking Ms Begum should come back to UK to stand trial, does not mean I do not abhor her behaviour, and I feel every sympathy with the families of ISIS victims. It is not as simple a matter as some tabloid journalists make out.

tabloids and media seem quite happy to exploit her story too. They aren't innocent in the depiction of any of this

Can I just point out that thinking Ms Begum should come back to UK to stand trial, does not mean I do not abhor her behaviour, and I feel every sympathy with the families of ISIS victims. It is not as simple a matter as some tabloid journalists make out.

The Human being has an instinct for survival and this Shamima has a strong one too

She does indeed. Her dream of being an ISIS wife and mother has gone. She has buried three babies, is separated from her husband and lives in a camp. Who knows what horror she has seen and endured. So to survive she is adopting western dress and hoping to come back to England. She will do what she can to achieve her goal and she has already proved that she has the ability to do just that. I have no idea if she will or should succeed this time. IMO at the very least before being granted leave to return, she should agree to accept support to address the psychological consequences of her experiences

Foxie at 15 I knew right from wrong and so did my now adult son and daughter.
Shamina Begum lived in the UK, she chose to fly to a country that was very dangerous.
I have no sympathy at all for her. I save my sympathy, for people like Alan, sorry I cannot remember his surname who was beheaded by those butchers.
By al means have sympathy for her * Foxie* that is your prerogative, I choose to have none and agree totally with Sajid Javed.

If Javid knows something that he can't share because it would impact any future decision about her, what does he gain from saying "I know something you don't, believe me, its awful". He is trying to influence our opinion of her and her situation without any legal restrictions, which is not how senior ministers should behave.

What is childish about Sajid Javid’s comment?
He quite clearly knows more about this woman and the atrocities she committed than we do and he expressed all he is permitted to say, presumably in case she is brought back here to face trial.

My sympathies have always and will always, rest with the victims of the vile regime she aligned herself to.

I acknowledge that she will in all probabilities return to the U.K. to face trial. As I have previously posted I do not think anyone should be made stateless. There are obviously details of this case that we the general public are not party to.

The one thing that I am not understanding (haven’t much legal knowledge) is that when people are found drug trafficking, stealing and even murdering abroad they are put on trial in that country and if found guilty serve their sentence in that Country.

Can someone enlighten me as to why this is not the case for Shamima Begum.

That was a rather childish comment by Javid. I was surprised

Nothing childish about it. He’s doing his job and I applaud him.

Ilovecheese

GillT57 You make a very good point about human rights, which I agree with. But I also think that whether the girl herself is bad or misguided, is beside the point that she is British and we should face up to our responsibilities and not expect another, poorer country to take over from us.

I agree. Like it or not, this young person is British born and as such is a British problem.

I hadn't realised that, how terribly sad

JaneJudge

I haven't seen the interview but tend to agree with what trisher said on page 1.

What did happen to the other two girls?

From what has been reported one of them, Kadiza Sultana, was definitely killed.

The whereabouts of the other girl, Amira Abase, are unknown.

GillT57 You make a very good point about human rights, which I agree with. But I also think that whether the girl herself is bad or misguided, is beside the point that she is British and we should face up to our responsibilities and not expect another, poorer country to take over from us.

I know exactly what I'm saying Alegrias. If she's being manipulated by our enemies she'll be a danger to our country and IMO shouldn't be allowed to return.

Being a victim doesn't excuse any atrocities you've been a party too.

I haven't seen the interview but tend to agree with what trisher said on page 1.

What did happen to the other two girls?

This whole case concerns me. On one hand, I see a teenager who acted in a reckless and irresponsible way by running away, and then witnessed and experienced all sorts of things that none of us have, none of us can comprehend. I think, on balance that she should be allowed back to stand trial, and if Javed has the information he says he has, then she will presumably spend a very long time in prison. I think the thing which bothers me the most is the use of the term 'woke' or even worse 'wokery' when we are talking about human rights lawyers, this ties in neatly with the tabloid campaign against law lords and Patel's comments about 'leftie lawyers'. Are we to believe that human rights are only such if they suit the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade, the Piers Morgans of this world?

trisher

She was born in Britain, she grew up in Bitain, she was radicalised in Britain. It's time we started taking responsibility for our citizens and their crimes. She should be tried in Britain and if found guilty of any crime spend her time in a British prison.

Absolutely. Who knows what any of us can do under propoganda that blots out the truth.

I am just so relieved that stupid and even dangerous decision that I tried to make when I was 15 years old, were not permitted by my father (back in the 1950's they had much more control). I also think back to my own children and some very really bad decisions they took during their teen years.
Just so pleased that none of these have any effect on their lives now.

This young woman has experienced more hardship and personal tragedy in her young life, than most of us have, even though many decades older. No wonder she comes over as hard and uncaring - her way of dealing with these tragedies.

Yes, she would need watching and monitoring if she were permitted to come back to her home - but it is her home - and that is exactly where she should be able to come.

rafichagran Trisher has given a good reason why she might not show the emotions that you would expect her to show.I do have some sympathy for her even if you don't. To have made a decision aged 15 that has led her into such a violent dark place is really tragic. I also have sympathy for her family.

If you aren't willing to inform yourself about child soldiers, the effects of witnessing violence on young brains and the subsequent inability to express or show emotion you really don't know what you are talking about.
This applies
Age-relevant considerations are necessary: children below the age of eighteen are still developing human beings, and their conscription is a form of abuse that adversely affects the child’s right to unhindered growth, as well as the capability to maintain an identity contextual to the growth. Research has shown that the younger the age of conscription, the harsher the psychological consequences.
Gender-relevant considerations are also necessary. The association of child soldier status with PTSD is twice as strong for girls compared with boys. This suggests that factors such as non- traumatic experiences or traumatic exposures other than those observed (notably sexual and other forms of gender-based violence) may contribute to depression and PTSD, with these factors especially important for girl soldiers.
If you are interested carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/files/cchr/files/dalessandra_pshychol_cons_of_childsoldiers.pdf

She has never lived in Bangladesh though, she was born and lived her whole life in the UK. Her mother was originally from Bangladesh, but is a UK citizen too. Whatever she did, she is a British citizen and is the responsibility of the country, she can’t be palmed off to another country to deal with.

Trisher I agree that it’s immoral to make someone stateless both the U.K. and Bangladesh have effectively washed their hands of her.

However I feel that she should get a fair trial in a neutral Country, if found guilty the U.K. could either pay for her incarceration in that Country or bring her back to the U.K. to carry out her sentence. What happens after that would be down to the Justices/Government of the day.

So if someone is being manipulated that means it precludes them from returning?

That person is the victim but we don't want them here, thank you very much?

Just listen to what you are saying.

Sorry but I don't see a victim. We have no idea if she's being manipulated or if she's the manipulator but either should preclude her from ever returning.

I agree Chewbacca she is not being judged for her lack of emotion because she's a woman but because of what she's witnessed, taken part in and excused.

Maybe the instinct to survive is why some of us instinctively don't want her to return.