Debts and the era

Poverty is, I suppose, relative to the 'normal' of the time - so a very different thing now, compared to the 1950s, when there was so much less to have or even strive for.

I would not want to go back to living the life I led in the early seventies, it was basically just surviving, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
I agree, things were different, my tenancy was secure as long as I paid the rent, and we weren’t going to starve.
But I had no money for anything, i took a certain pride in managing, but if I hadn’t been young and optimistic that it wouldn’t be for ever, it would have been very hard to live with.

Before we get into the smart phones, broadband criticisms, it is important to know that many job centres have closed and that claimants have to do everything online now. Apart from home educate their children over the past year to so of course. As some have eloquently explained, debt is easy to slip into, especially with the frequent imposition of moving home. The 1950s may have been a time of poverty for many, but at least most had a secure council tenancy with no risk of your landlord wanting to sell up. Thus, communities are established, families help each other, even, if you wish, vegetables can be grown in gardens which are effectively your own. It is unfair to compare very different times, it is not all about tattoos, false nails and flat screen tvs, despite what some newspapers peddle

I agree, Galaxy. Things that we may not have had in our younger days (or had, but considered to be luxuries) simply aren’t the same any more. Relative poverty, as opposed to absolute poverty, compares UK citizens to other UK citizens, not those in third world places with dirty water and not enough food. Not having a smartphone cuts people off from various aspects of life - socially, educationally and in terms of job-seeking etc. It’s not just an inconvenience, like it used to be, and it’s not a luxury as it might be in cultures that don’t depend on it.

Many people seem to really resent people with not much money having large TV’s, for some reason. Yes, a colour TV was once a status symbol, but not any more, and they provide cheap entertainment, education and company for a lot of people who can’t afford to go out as much as they might like to. Tattoos are not my ‘thing’, but they are a way of showing identification with others in the same way that hairstyles and clothing do. If someone saves for one, why shouldn’t they be able to choose their own ‘look’, like everyone else?

Do we want people to have nothing at all before they can be considered poor?

I didnt know that MerylStreep. He was like a walking time bomb.
I think if you want people to work then items such as a phone and access to the internet are a necessity, I dont think it's useful to compare to the fifties, it's a completely different world.

MissAdventure

Did they say why?
A cocaine habit?

I would suggest it was the porn sites he was watching. The type of stuff he was looking at wouldn’t be cheap.

Maybe in some cases money spent on tattoos could be used on more essential items. Just saying!!

It wasn’t explained MissA just a list of his (extensive) credit card debts in Court and agreed smaller repayments to service some loans - just enough to cover them without action being taken. He was in a mess financially and he said he was stressed. His bank account showed him to be in credit for only a few days once his monthly salary had been paid in but most of the month he was living in an overdraft situation.

Did they say why?
A cocaine habit?

The murderer, Couzens, was up to his eyes in debt it was stated in court and on his excellent salary too.

I think there is a vast difference between being poor, and living in poverty.

Skydancer
I agree, it’s all about expectations.
I was a single parent in the early seventies, I had no heating, no carpets, no washing machine, no car, no phone, and everything I did have was second hand, even all my baby clothes, and they had been passed around quite a lot.
An elderly neighbor gave me some saucepans, I bought a fridge for a fiver, I had a sofa someone was chucking out.
But I was proud, I never expected anything from anyone, and I accepted I could only have what I could afford.
I wouldn’t wish or expect anyone to live like that now, but I think perhaps, people need to realise a lot of things are not necessary.

I have noticed a difference in attitude towards money between say, my age, and younger people (20s, 30s)

They seem much more relaxed about borrowing, getting a loan, and I've lost count of how many parents I've heard say "They've never got any money, but they've just booked a holiday/spent £££££ on a dog, or similar.

A friend of a dd (single, no children) ran up over £30k of credit card debt. It wasn’t down to poverty - she just kept on spending on clothes, makeup, bags, etc. and ever since she’d been earning reasonable money had been continually bailed out by her parents. She’d never had to live within her perfectly adequate means.

Eventually it did mean a voluntary bankruptcy.
From all I gather, such cases are not unusual.

Blossoming

It’s frighteningly easy to go from ‘doing OK’ to drowning in debt. I’m afraid for young families feeling the economic effects of this current pandemic,Brexit and government incompetence.

so do I I suspect we really don't know the half of what is to come

It’s frighteningly easy to go from ‘doing OK’ to drowning in debt. I’m afraid for young families feeling the economic effects of this current pandemic,Brexit and government incompetence.

I grew up with every tally man going so credit is/was no surprise to me.
I bought my first house in 1972 ( 100 % mortgage)
These were the days when you could literally go out in your lunch break and get another job ( printing trade)
Practically everything in my first house was on credit.
Later in life I’ve borrowed money but only if that money worked for me and not the bank.

A very realistic scenario JaneJudge with many other potentail outgoings.

Skydancer any ideas for cutting back in that one?

Unfortunately this is real life for many families, there are many who have no idea of the sense of failure and utter despair some people feel, every day, while doing their level best.

Skydancer
Are you aware that you’d have a job signing on these days without a smart phone. They aren’t all iPhone 12s

The poor (you know, the ones with 50 inch TVs and false nails) should grow their own veg (in their non existent gardens) cook from scratch (in their non existent kitchens) and freeze it (in their non existent chest freezers)
Problem solved!

JaneJudge that was very succinctly put.

That’s kind, Neen. JaneJudge has described well the contemporary case, how things can spiral for poor people.

There are many anecdotes I could tell. Many agencies are complicit in encouraging debt including employers.

One story. My late husband’s employers decide to relocate. Most staff were paid on commission for sales perfomance. Targets were high to start with. The employer deliberately chose a much more expensive location than the former, said to be more prestigious for the brand. Housing costs were much higher. There was help with moving costs and bigger mortgages for two years then staff were on their own.

I saw the strategy documents describing the rationale for the move - to make sales staff “hungry”. Not hungry for food but hungry to make more money so that they could service their increased mortgage debt which of course increased sales for the company. A white-collar treadmill.

Early you should write a book. That was a very interesting read.

My DD (40) talks of some of her contemporaries as being poor. However they all have mobile phones, TV and internet - considered necessities these days. My idea of poor is how we were in the 1950s - no mod cons, 2nd-hand clothes, no car, no snacks between meals, no holidays. I'm not suggesting we go back to that but, in my opinion, there are many ways to cut back if you are in dire straits. Whilst I feel sympathy for people who have genuinely fallen on hard times, I get a bit cross with others who seem to expect everything. In my day we "saved up" before we bought things.

Janejudge gosh uniforms are expremely expensive I've just bought two of my grandchildrens. Their previous school had a second hand shop for uniforms so when they left my daughter donated all their uniforms to that. But oh my, the mental image you've just written reminds me when mine were little and I was a single mum and you do struggle. But I guess seeing it written like that, makes me think, I wonder how many go through that right now today .