when gender blinds us to sex

This is for March - May 2018 trisher, I'll have a dig about to see if I can find more up to date stats....

According to the data collection exercise conducted in March - May 2018:
• 44 of the 124 public and private prisons (35%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners.
• There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who had sat a Local Transgender Case Board.
• Of these, 111 reported their legal gender5 as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. When asked about the gender the prisoner identified as, 114 identified as female, 19 as male and 6 did not provide a response

So what happens if they don't have a GRC certificate, or if they have refuse to show it, don't have a copy of their birth certificate and refuse permission to allow staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel for confirmation

The answer seems to be:

Where an individual expresses a view of location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender, the individual must be asked to provide confirmation of living in the gender with which they identify.

I agree trisher that we need unbiased and accurate recording and reporting which is why all crimes, regardless of their severity should have the gender of the perpetrator recorded.

Finally Pritti... i agree with you.

Cross posts Chewbacca so someone cannot be searched in order to ascertain their gender.

So what happens if they don't have a GRC certificate, or if they have refuse to show it, don't have a copy of their birth certificate and refuse permission to allow staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel for confirmation.

Don't panic, I'm not expecting you to have an answer, just thinking aloud.

This is a link if you want to read about it www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Chewbacca

^In England and Wales, almost 57% of trans-identified male inmates have been charged with at^ least one sex offense, compared to 17% of non-trans male inmates, and just 2% of biologically female inmates.

In 2019, Freedom of Information requests made by feminist activists revealed that at least six police forces in the UK had been recording criminals based on self-identified gender rather than sex.

Speaking to The Times after the data was received, Nicola Williams, director of Fair Play for Women, said: “You can’t get much more of a male crime than rape. It would be highly offensive to a woman who was raped to have it written down that her attacker was a female when clearly that was a male with a penis."

I really hope that, this time, the tide is turning and women's safety will no longer be sacrificed on the alter of "inclusivity for everybody, everywhere".

This isn't exactly true. The numbers of transwomen serving prison sentences is not accurately recorded. So although there are 125 transgender people are recorded as serving prisoners and 60 of those are for sex crimes the complete number of transpeople serving prison sentences isn't known, because the numbers serving shorter sentences isn't recorded. As sex crimes tend to attract longer sentences the figures may be quite different.
I do think if we are to approach this in any reasonable manner the first thing has to be accurate and unbiased recording and reporting

Yes, that is the one I was thinking of.

I remember that M0nica. It was Joyce McKinney I think?

Some really interesting contributions to this thread, as with the one that was deleted. Rather than wiping out such an interesting discussion, why not just delete the posts which were offensive?

When crime statistics are being gathered, as has already been said, to not state whether the perpetrators are male or female results in the loss of important data. Data that can be used to find explanations as to why a particular crime is for example more likely to be committed by men than women or vise versa.

When it comes to incarceration the safety and well being of the recently convicted and their fellow inmates should be a top priority.

I agree Rosie that the supposed argument that it "may not be easy to determine sex" is a cop out especially as you've pointed out that physical examinations are carried out anyway and this happens when a prisoner is taken into a prison facility, even when on remand.

They really should not to be in the police force if they dont have the ability to determine sex without examination.

This conundrum is also covered:

Where ‘sex’ cannot be determined, staff must use the best information available, consulting with equality leads as necessary. Staff should avoid asking to see a GRC but instead request sight of a birth certificate as confirmation of legal gender where the person was born in the UK. Someone born abroad who has a UK-issued GRC may not have been able to obtain a new birth certificate in their acquired gender. A GRC is an acceptable form of proof of sex, if produced voluntarily. If an individual cannot produce a birth certificate, and have not chosen to provide a GRC, they may give permission for staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel to confirm that a GRC has been issued. Searching of the person must not be used as a means to determine gender.

Rosie many years ago. I think in the 1970s there was a case where a woman kidnapped and raped a man.

Some woman kidnapped one of the roving American missionaries we used to get. Mormons? Jehovahs witnesses? She had him tied to a bed and stimulated his penis so it hardened and then mounted him.

I am not sure she was tried for rape, but i think they did imprison her on grounds of kidnap and sexual assault.

So, anyone with the tackle that enabled them to sexually assault or rape a natal woman in the first place, is perfectly entitled to state that he identifies as a woman and they'll be housed in a British prison alongside other vulnerable natal woman.
Yes, which is why I think it might be a good idea to differentiate between those who have ‘no tackle’ and have taken female hormones, and those who haven’t. I’m sure it’s not as simple as that though, which is why I say ‘might’.

Or we could stop pretending that in the vast majority of cases we cant tell peoples sex.

I can see your point Doodledog but, in the case of trans people in prison, the Prison Service Transgender Policy Document says:

The primary focus is on individuals who express a consistent desire to live permanently in the gender with which they identify, and which is opposite to the biological sex assigned to them at birth, including those who:
• wish to seek to transition permanently to a new gender
• wish to consistently live in the gender with which they identify but do not seek to have this recognised in law
have gained legal recognition of their new gender.

1.4 Also included in the scope of this framework are those who identify as transgender but do not seek to acquire a new gender.
2 They will be managed in accordance with their legally recognised gender and include those who: • are Intersex or individuals with variations of sex characteristics who are content with their sex assigned at birth; • do not identify with a gender (non-binary); • have an inconsistent gender identity (gender fluid); • are cross dressers (transvestite).

So, anyone with the tackle that enabled them to sexually assault or rape a natal woman in the first place, is perfectly entitled to state that he identifies as a woman and they'll be housed in a British prison alongside other vulnerable natal woman.

Kirkubbin2000 therein lies one of the difficulties. They shouldn’t have to do an examination to find out. But what is the option? Wait until a further crime has been committed whilst in custody or in prison?
Even if it was acceptable to ask are you fully transitioned, would a person necessarily say yes?

may not be easy to determine sex well that's a cop out straight off. A simple cheek swab will determine sex if they don't want to do a physical examination. They don't have too many problems with doing intimate physical examinations of suspected drug dealers or users.

They really should not to be in the police force if they dont have the ability to determine sex without examination.

Reading the info on the petition it looks as if this will not happen. It is left up to individual police forces and they say it may not be easy to determine sex and they are not going to start an examination to find out.

FarNorth

Chewbacca

In 2020, in English prisons, 74 male prisoners who identify as women were serving sentences for sex offences compared to 125 women. Of those 125 women, some may be people who may be biologically male but have a GRC as they are automatically counted as being female.

Some males being automatically counted as female is completely ridiculous.

Getting a GRC - Gender Recognition Certificate - doesn't have to include having had genital surgery (which many people believe it does).
I don't advocate forcing anyone to have surgery, in order to get a certificate.
I think the GRC should be abolished.

I think this is a very good point.

I do wonder, however, whether there should be a legal difference between those transpeople who have actively transitioned, for want of a better phrase, and those who simply ‘identify’. I think that this would allay some of the fears of women, which would in turn make the lives of transpeople easier.

Note that this is not saying that anyone should be forced to do anything, and is nor excluding transmen - it is just that men are at far less risk from transmen than women are from untransitioned transwomen.

Summerlove

I’m mostly surprised that it’s in law that women cannot be rapists.

I find that…wrong, for lack of a better word.

Biological women can and do rape.

Sadly true and also very complicit in sex crimes and knowing it is happening as I know from experience as a child.

Summerlove As you need a penis to rape, biological women can't rape. I'm assuming you mean biological women have used implements to sexually assault someone. Where are your links to evidence of this, and how many women are guilty of this crime? I would think the number would be vanishingly small.

I agree and I'm not sure I have the words to express why except to say proven rapists don't get rights to anything as far as I am concerned except an ability to serve out their sentence without the opportunity to keep offending or having other crimes committed against them. Crimes occuring in prison really isn't acceptable considering it undoes the punishment and rehabilitation aspects of those who continue to offend there and creates victims of those who committed lesser crimes.

Just for once I totally agree with Priti Patel.

I’m mostly surprised that it’s in law that women cannot be rapists.

I find that…wrong, for lack of a better word.

Biological women can and do rape.