when gender blinds us to sex

I agree, something should either be illegal or not. Prosecution and conviction rates are irrelevant, especially as they can only be ascertained after the law is passed.

That’s true, Rosie.

I don’t think that laws should be passed on the basis of how likely crimes are to be prosecuted. If that were the driver it would still be legal for men to beat their wives.

trisher

Iam64

So, we can trust men who self ID as women but, we can’t trust male judges to hear rape trials because they may have traditional values. According to Trisha.

This bullying, sexual harassment of women, lesbians, heterosexuals, whatever, by men who claim to be women is beyond disgusting. If misogyny became a hate crime, would that help.

I don't think I have ever said I would trust every transwoman. I certainly don't trust every judge and a lot of barristers will do anything to win.
The problem with making misogyny a hate crime is how likely is it that a prosecution would ever be brought to court never mind succeed? If rape can't be successfully dealt with how will misogyny be?

Misogyny is something that is quite likely to be witnessed by others, rape usually doesn't have witnesses other than the victim and assailant. When you have independent witnesses it is easier to get a conviction.

I think the prime influence on racism was not the law but education. You change far more by educating and changing attitudes than by prosecutions.

The same was as racism. Ok, so being racist is not criminal, but behaving in a racist manner, or more to the point, committing a racist act is a crime, and if an existing crime is considered to be racially motivated it carries an automatically higher sentence..

The same could apply to misogyny, and probably would, if men didn’t run the legal system.

I was wary of misogyny a hate crime just because of what I saw as the scale of the.problem. But according to pilot studies it leads to police taking other offences against women more seriously.

Iam64

So, we can trust men who self ID as women but, we can’t trust male judges to hear rape trials because they may have traditional values. According to Trisha.

This bullying, sexual harassment of women, lesbians, heterosexuals, whatever, by men who claim to be women is beyond disgusting. If misogyny became a hate crime, would that help.

I don't think I have ever said I would trust every transwoman. I certainly don't trust every judge and a lot of barristers will do anything to win.
The problem with making misogyny a hate crime is how likely is it that a prosecution would ever be brought to court never mind succeed? If rape can't be successfully dealt with how will misogyny be?

So, we can trust men who self ID as women but, we can’t trust male judges to hear rape trials because they may have traditional values. According to Trisha.

This bullying, sexual harassment of women, lesbians, heterosexuals, whatever, by men who claim to be women is beyond disgusting. If misogyny became a hate crime, would that help.

Wheniwasyourage

It's just ridiculous!! How did we ever get to this stage? Let's hope we're starting to see the beginnings of the pendulum swinging back.

It is ridiculous.

The trouble is, as long as the climate is one of No Debate, and when people can't ask genuine questions without being shouted down or accused of nefarious intent, things like this will happen.

When there are people who always support transpeople over others, support changes to the language that will, if unchecked, result in there being no way to have conversations that differentiate between transpeople and others, things like this will happen.

When dissent is seen as transphobia, and even people who are generally supportive of the rights of transpeople are victimised, things like this will happen.

When people are hounded out of their jobs, and their unions are afraid to support them, things like this will happen.

It has to be stopped, and preferably in time to restore sensible relations between the vast majority of the trans community and everyone else.

Chewbacca .

TERF as (if I remember correctly) Trying to Explain Reality to Fuckwits!

And here we are, still trying.

It's just ridiculous!! How did we ever get to this stage? Let's hope we're starting to see the beginnings of the pendulum swinging back.

VioletSky

Telling anyone who they should be attracted to or open to having a relationships is wrong fullstop

Bonkers people are only representative of themselves fullstop

Unfortunately, there seem to be enough of these bonkers people that life is being made very difficult for lesbians who are looking for partners.

People, trans or not, who insist that 'transwomen are women' are part of creating this problem.

Apparently, gay men are also having problems from transmen who want to have sex with them.

I recently heard Arty Morty, on Graham Linehan's youtube, say that people on gay men's dating sites can specify any preference e.g. height, age, race, interests but preference for 'biological male only' is not allowed.

Are there any cases of heterosexual men being pressured into having sex with TW (some of whom, presumably, have started off as gay men) in spite of the fact that they prefer to have sex with people without penises? If not, is it just that lesbians, being women, are an easier target?

SueDonim the harassment of lesbians who by definition have chosen to have their intimate relationships with women, by those who tell them they are transphobic for refusing the advances of TW is unbelievable.
TW who want sexual relationships with women are in effect heterosexual. That means they choose a partner of the opposite sex, not the gender they have chosen and certainly not someone who doesn’t want a heterosexual relationship. It appears to be another trans-rights over the rights of women. Fortunately it’s still a minority of perpetrators and their fans, but it’s not acceptable.

Telling anyone who they should be attracted to or open to having a relationships is wrong fullstop

Bonkers people are only representative of themselves fullstop

Wheniwasyourage sorry I posted to soon.

I think you're right Rosie it's like going back in time isn't it.

I think the TERF's definition on MN sums it up perfectly.

*tail’s. this iPad thinks it knows best.

I really can’t see the difference between what those transgender people are saying and the old homosexual conversion therapy of old, ‘you’d like it if you’d t ried it’ I’d bet my house that the numbers of men either straight or gay being pressurised are vanishingly small compared with the numbers of straight or lesbian women. It must be horrendous to face that sort of pressure. What’s gone so wrong that the tails wagging the dog to this extent?

The pressure on lesbians to have sex with transwomen is very real. It has happened to friends of mine.

Our sexuality, and who we are attracted to, is about as personal as it gets, and there is nothing 'phobic' about not wanting to have sex with someone for far less fundamental reasons than the fact that they belong to the 'wrong' sex. I can't see how this dreadful behaviour towards lesbians is any different from insisting that straight people are homophobic if they don't want to have sex with a gay person, or that lesbians 'just need a good seeing-to' by a man, as was an oft-repeated slur in the past.

You couldn't make it up, SueDonim! How can it be right to put pressure on anyone to have a sexual relationship they don't want, whatever the genitalia involved, is what I want to know.

I remember hearing that on MN, they had described TERF as (if I remember correctly) Trying to Explain Reality to Fuckwits! Seems to sum it up, really.

A long article today on lesbian women being called TERF’s if they don’t wish to have sex with someone with a penis.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

trisher, sexual assault by penetration is an entirely separate offence created by statute and with its own sentencing guidelines, up to a maximum of life. The judge will have heard all the evidence, which in such a case would be pretty graphic. I would trust a judge, male or female, to sentence according to the evidence and impact on the victim presented in court.

Sweden gives me hope, since they changed their legal definition convictions rose 75%

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden