Staying on topic- threads in general

'peer-reviewed' ?

*I believe the majority of trans don’t want the publicity or to stir up anger against others. They simply want to live their lives in peace.
Possibly some posters on here think that’s wrong.*

I believe it to be the case, but as far as I'm aware, there has not been a peer-review study that has asked a representative sample of transpeople what they think. So many of the 'most transpeople' comments on here are speculation. The transpeople I know (and, as I suspect is true of most people, that is not a high number) most definitely want to live in peace, and are worried about the way in which this has become a tribal issue, or indeed an 'issue' at all.

The loud voices are always the ones that get heard, and are the ones shouting for changes in the language, for transpeople's rights to have sex with whomever they like, as anyone who doesn't fancy them is 'phobic' (a touch of the INCELs there?), and for women to have no safe spaces of our own.

The transpeople who 'have always been among us', and who would need someone to 'look under their clothes' before anyone could tell that they were trans seem to me very different (although as I say, I am basing this on a small sample). They would not dream of pushing their way into spaces where they weren't wanted, and completely understand the need for privacy, dignity and freedom from fear - perhaps more than most.

If a simpler way to self-id were all they wanted, I doubt that many people would be anything other than supportive, and I feel very sorry for those who genuinely only want that.

trisher, please stop being unpleasant. It's not that I haven't 'bothered' to know what people want - it's more that I don't pretend to know more than what transpeople personally known to me have said, and I don't pretend to speak for 'most people', be they trans or otherwise.

I asked how the process 'they want' differs from 'wanting to change gender' like you said, and also how the process would allay the fears of women who don't want male-bodied people in their safe spaces. You haven't answered either question.

Yes MollyGo it is a minority of trans activists who are winding people up to a level of hysteria.

It's really not worthwhile giving them the time of day. Especially not worthwhile seeking out their views.

We all cross paths with trans people, we just can't tell so it's hard to know that those are the everyday voices we should be listening to.

Excellent post Mollygo, especially What you shouldn’t be able to do is erode the rights of those who are the sex you wish you were just because you want to change gender.

Doodledog

So what was the process they wanted, and how would it differ from ‘deciding to change gender’?

Given the concerns of many women, how would this process ensure that simply identifying as female isn’t used as a means to enter female spaces when women want male-bodied people around?

Here's a link to the process now and a brief explanation of what people want to see removed.
www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/changing-your-legal-gender-in-the-uk
I must say I'm surprised that anyone who is speaking out about trans issues hasn't bothered to investigate the reality of the situation!

FarNorth

Multiple FacePalms ???

'Sex' = biological sex (female or male)

'Gender' = archaic sexist stereotypes

I’ve been away, came back, read the last page and have since just managed to read through these. Doodledog please don’t shoot yourself!
FarNorth that’s a very clear post.
Sex -you can’t change it. If you are female, you are female. You are a woman, and can be a mother or not.
You can SAY you are a man, or a father, you can add or remove bits, grow a beard and have a deep voice and a hairy chest, but you are still a female.

For those who can’t tell the difference, Sex is immutable, Gender you can swap day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute. You can SAY you are any gender.
What you shouldn’t be able to do is erode the rights of those who are the sex you wish you were just because you want to change gender.
The horrifying thing is that it’s a minority of trans and their fans who want to do the eroding, who physically and verbally attack females for speaking the truth about sex being immutable and female rights being eroded and applaud each other for doing so, throwing the language of hate at anyone who disagrees. Almost as bad - the media who give them the publicity they so ardently seek.
I believe the majority of trans don’t want the publicity or to stir up anger against others. They simply want to live their lives in peace.
Possibly some posters on here think that’s wrong.

Wow.

And if you refuse or even dare speak out against it you'll be subjected to appalling threats of physical, often sexual violence.

"will" happen is happening.

Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole? Perhaps because those few are loud, aggressive and overbearing and want to shut down anyone who dares to disagree or question them (Kathleen Stock? David Chappelle? Maya Forstater? Marion Miller?) The message from the few activists is quite clearly: women move over, shut up, give in.

So what was the process they wanted, and how would it differ from ‘deciding to change gender’?

Given the concerns of many women, how would this process ensure that simply identifying as female isn’t used as a means to enter female spaces when women want male-bodied people around?

Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole? Have you read, amongst others, Nancy Kelly of Stonewall's latest "think therapy" she thinks people need to address?

Is that all? The right to self ID? They wouldn't be wanting to then access single sex spaces on the basis of that self ID would they? Because that would destroy those single sex places and remove a right women fought for. And as you agreed on a different thread it's their gender that changes not their sex

Chewbacca

^What rights do they want?^ That don't reduce, minimise or eradicate the rights that other groups have fought long and hard for.... for example: the rights for women to have a relationship with any one they wish, without fear of being stigmatised as anti trans.

And there you have a classic example of the things which "will" happen if transpeople live in an equal society. Only they won't because most people do not want a relationship with someone who has been pressured into having sex with them. Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole?

Well the one you have all vociferously opposed for a start off the right to self ID to remove transition from the complicated, expensive and convoluted procedure it presently is and make it a simple non-medical legal procedure that is affordable for everyone.
Self ID was noisily promoted by the media as people waking up and deciding one day to change gender. That was never the process most transpeople wanted.

Waits with bated breath.

What rights do they want? That don't reduce, minimise or eradicate the rights that other groups have fought long and hard for.... for example: the rights for women to have a relationship with any one they wish, without fear of being stigmatised as anti trans.

I wonder that too, Rosie51 what rights, that they do not have at the moment, would make them feel better? Maybe there is some compromise that could be reached there.

Rosie51

trisher what rights do transpeople not have? What rights do they want?

An excellent question. I am looking forward to seeing the answer.

trisher what rights do transpeople not have? What rights do they want?

I guess I just don't feel erased. I don't think transpeople are trying to do anything to women. I suspect any backlash movement that seeks to claim its rights will be eroded if others are supported. It's been the outcry everytime any human rights progress has been made. It's never happened.
In the past we have been warned
Poor people being given rights would destroy society
Women achieving equality would destroy the family
Black people achieving equality would swamp the country
Gay people being given rights would destroy the family
These never happened.

Sorry Trisher that emoji wasnt aimed at you, just at Rosie's editing problems.

. It would help if I wasnt so lazy and included the name of the person I was talking to. If people think threads are repetitive well theres always the option of not reading them. I am not interested in say the Good morning thread but I understand other people are and wouldnt dream of popping on to tell them to talk about something else . I am I will admit quite defensive of MN because I think being public about allowing gender critical debate can carry a great personal cost.

If we go back to gender norms and how they are a societal issue would anyone like to explain how transpeople who feel they have the wrong body could in any way communicate their real personality and feel happy and comfortable except by conforming with those norms and (much as you might dislike the word) presenting as the gender they feel they are?
Is it in fact completely wrong to blame them for the fact that such norms may be becoming more entrenched. Wouldn't people be better looking and fighting the industries which really benefit from this, that is the entertainment and porn industries. If gender norms are more entrenched then trans people are the victims not the perpetrators.

And now I want an edit button to say the first live not the second one!

We can and I agree with every word......( except I suspect you meant love not live in the 3rd paragraph)