Staying on topic- threads in general

So exactly what have transpeople to do with changing gender norms?

The square root of bugger all.

trisher
. . . . it isn't actually the erasure of women the pronoun change is ushering in it's the abandonment of gender norms.

me
Gender norms are being reinforced, of course, each time someone insists on a change of pronoun or a ‘change’ of gender.

trisher (posting google images of a drag artist supposedly challenging gender norms by wearing clothing usually associated with women, but IMO reinforcing said norms as they are exaggerations of female presentation)

Challenging gender roles. He's a man in a dress. He's a drag queen. He's not trans!

trisher (posting a google image of a woman in a trouser suit)

Challenging gender roles- woman in a suit- she's not trans!

me
yes, I know the difference between drag and trans. And between transvestism and transsexuality.And between 'gender bending' fashion and either of the above.

trisher
So do you agree that gender norms are now being challenged Doodledog? That more men are now taking responsibility for childcare and what were once called "women's jobs"

me
I don't think that it has to do with trans at all. Gender norms are not always challenged - they morph with time and over cultures, usually for political reasons. Shared childcare responsibilities are more likely to be a result of the need for both parents to earn a living, and of fewer women being prepared to be financially dependent.

trisher
AS for the "its' because both parents are working" argument some of it may be true but I think there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in.

me
Yes, men are better able to make that choice now, but not because they are individually challenging gender norms, or because young men love their children more than previous generations, but because of changes to political policies which made those choices possible.

trisher
Do you really not understand that for my dad's generation caring for your children was seen as weak and unmasculine, that many women brought into this and used fathers as disciplinarians?*

me
Yes, gender norms evolve, but just as they changed during the war, and changed back again afterwards, in many cases they are driven by changes in political thinking and economics, every bit as much as by changes in individuals.

trisher
So exactly what have transpeople to do with changing gender norms?

me (shoots self)

While I can understand the temptation, please don't! We need your logical reasoned posts. choose your bribe of preference

The cake would be lovely, please.

(and thank you for talking me down)

Doodledog - do not shoot yourself. Amongst many great posters, you stand out as being able to stay the course, argue effectively and you never lose your s*

Trisha- I don’t enjoy disagreeing with you at every turn but here I go. I find your stereotypical 50’s working class dad’s doesn’t fit easily. Anecdotally, my mum, aunties, grannies etc never ever used dad as a threat, they dealt with all the stuff and life went on.
My grandfather dob 1888 embroidered and knitted. Some learned in the trenches of ww1. He cooked, cleaned, hoovered and was actively involved in my dad’s care. This continued with his grandchildren. My maternal grandfather was the prime giver, despite f.t work because my gran had m.h. Problems, these days probably known as bi polar.
My dad worked long hours. He cooked Sunday breakfast and on our self catering holidays shared the cooking with mum
Apologies for personal anecdotes. My experience though is many friends had similar experiences

Yes most young men I know are active fathers. Research continues to show women do the bulk of domestic duties

Don't do it Doodledog, just think of the mess you'll make!!!

Just in case you're undecided, here's some more bribery .

Iam64

Doodledog - do not shoot yourself. Amongst many great posters, you stand out as being able to stay the course, argue effectively and you never lose your s*

Trisha- I don’t enjoy disagreeing with you at every turn but here I go. I find your stereotypical 50’s working class dad’s doesn’t fit easily. Anecdotally, my mum, aunties, grannies etc never ever used dad as a threat, they dealt with all the stuff and life went on.
My grandfather dob 1888 embroidered and knitted. Some learned in the trenches of ww1. He cooked, cleaned, hoovered and was actively involved in my dad’s care. This continued with his grandchildren. My maternal grandfather was the prime giver, despite f.t work because my gran had m.h. Problems, these days probably known as bi polar.
My dad worked long hours. He cooked Sunday breakfast and on our self catering holidays shared the cooking with mum
Apologies for personal anecdotes. My experience though is many friends had similar experiences

Yes most young men I know are active fathers. Research continues to show women do the bulk of domestic duties

Well I supposeit depends on the sort of people you knew in the 50s and 60s. I wouldn't dream of calling my family typical. If I did you'd all be up in arms anyway. At one time my mum earned more than my dad but that was because she was a great sales person. I hate to do this because it's a bit "yorkshire man ish" but I'm amazed your grandad hoovered I can vividly remember my mum buying our first vacuum cleaner. She didn't like Hoover and brought an Electrolux. Both my grandparents would be well into their 60s before they got one. Ours was the first in the family it would be about 1958.
As for the men doing their share why would you post about it if it was the norm? It wasn't
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from your family history.

Doodledog all I can say is I admire your persistance and your dedication in trying to put me down. I'm sure if I chose to I could go through all your posts take things out of context and use them to prove something or other. Quite frankly I CBA. So assume you've won or acheived whatever reason you choose to post convoluted and lengthy posts for. For me the matter remains quite simple human rights matter and I have yet to see any society which was improved by restricting those rights and most societies that practise discrimination begin by targetting one group and then moving on to others. IF you discriminate against trans people who will be next? You may think you are being quite reasonable, but the alliances and forces behind such discrimination are certainly not.
.

I gave up trying to figure out what the points were and why they were an excuse to not accept trans people ages ago.

Thanks VioletSky I needed a laugh!

Trisha, you posted your family history and comments about the working classes. So did I. My paternal grandfather’s own father was a but if a bar steward. Their mum suffered as a result. Her six sons broke that abusive mould, as many of the young men I know are doing

I haven't seen one post on this thread from anyone saying they don't accept trans people, not one.

We are working class, our parents and even grandparents worked split shifts!

Then what on earth are we arguing about.

Yay trans people, we love and accept them

Now what's for dinner?

VioletSky

Then what on earth are we arguing about.

Yay trans people, we love and accept them

Now what's for dinner?

VS, that's what many of us have been saying all along, but it hasn't been taken on board.

What we don't accept is double standards when it comes to language that erases women and forwards transpeople, and the erosion of the safe spaces that women have fought for so hard since before any of us were born.

Ironically, my post above was to show that it doesn't matter how often things are repeated they are ignored and the same questions are asked over and over again, long after they have been answered.

I've given my opinions on all that many times doodledog.

None of us are in charge of policy changes etc.

My answers have been deemed not good enough and some quite offensive things have been said, not at me but at the air around me that I am not allowed to be offended by... Yet when I explain what discrimination is, I am a big scary monster.

All efforts or ideas for compromise have been shut down.

It's become a back and forth effort t one-upmanship that is just exhausting and very very boring.

At what point do we all get off the merry-go-round and talk about the things that really matter, like whats for dinner?

I don't see you as a big scary monster, VS ❤️

Well I certainly love and accept them, which apparently makes me misogynistic and anti-feminist. So if everyone loves and accepts them are we all that?
Don't bother to answer that it isn't asked seriously..

Curry VioletSky

I'm definitely not but I fully accept I come across as an arrogant arse in type at times...

Im just very formal in type for some reason.

Cottage pie being made for tomorrow. Hope my dad likes it. I do love a curry.

Yay trans people, we love and accept them

I don't accept them as being the sex they say they are, if that isn't their genuine biological sex.

If you do accept that they are a sex other than their genuine biological one, we don't agree.

(I'm sure you knew that, really)

trisher
. . . . it isn't actually the erasure of women the pronoun change is ushering in it's the abandonment of gender norms.
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trisher
So exactly what have transpeople to do with changing gender norms?

Come on trisher surely you can see you were being a little contradictory there?

What tenacity Doodledog!
I'm glad the cake intervention was in time to stop something terrible from happening.

I know but all the cognitive dissonance is making me dizzy so I've just decided for everyone

OK for the sake of those who have prob;lems with complicated ideas here's the explanation.
Using preferred pronouns helps abandon gender norms because the use particularly of "they" means that you can no longer judge someone as man or woman but just as a person. The perceptions of what is seen as men's or women's behaviour may change as well as people begin to question preconceptions.

However linking that to transpeople is a wrong, because also involved are non-binary people who are not trans.

Transpeople do not transition as was alleged earlier (and if you want to you can find it I CBA) because of gender norms and to link them to that is just wrong. If you can't understand the complexity of that well I'm sorry I can't help you. I tried by posting pictures and got accused of not understanding historic fashions. I can't decide if this is an inability to understand complex issues or just a desperation to prove I am wrong, or perhaps both. Gender norms exist. Transpeople exist. Gender norms change. Transpeople remain trans and have throughout history regardless of the accepted gender norms of the time.

Gender is simply a spectrum.

Gender norms are harmful and damage people's ability to be their authentic selves because of the expectations placed apon them by others. Expectations by other leads to expectations placed on themselves to conform which leads to unhappiness and poor self image.

People are confused by gender because society (with some differences depending on culture) tells us that "male" and "female" are the only choices. In order to be categorized as the right one we must present in a certain way with appearance and manner. When most of society places importance on that, its not really any surprise that transgender people feel the same. In fact they may feel they must appear and perform their role even more so to be accepted as the gender they feel.

Actually:

"cis" means over this side
"trans" means that side
"non binary" means neither.
"bi gender" means both
"gender fluid" means moving back and forwards between the two.

It's not surprising that this happens when most people see gender as "male" and "female" as strongly as we see up and down or left and right, that trans people have fallen into that trap too.

If gender is a spectrum then we can all exist comfortably on it. We can all be our authentic selves and not judged for not conforming to gender stereotypes.

Because actually not conforming is dangerous. People are confused by those who do not conform to their idea of gender and they bully them for it. In some cases they may even attack them for it.

So all these little changes that we are making to take gender out of the equation are actually helpful for everyone to live authentically, not just trans people.

He should be able to stay at home with the children without judgement

She should be able to not have children or go out to work while they stay at home with dad without judgement.

She should be able to not wear high heels or makeup without judgement.

He should be able to wear high heels or makeup without judgement.

They should be able to do or not do any of those things while still identifying where they feel they should be placed on the spectrum.

The spectrum still exists even if we do away with gender specific labels entirely in policies or shop signs etc which is where people should have the choice to self identify.

All. Of. Us.

Living authentically.

It's a good thing.

For anyone who is interested.

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Multiple FacePalms ???

'Sex' = biological sex (female or male)

'Gender' = archaic sexist stereotypes