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Staying on topic- threads in general

(639 Posts)
trisher Sun 24-Oct-21 10:01:44

Do you mind if a thread de-rails after it has been running for a while and extends into other areas? I would have thought this was a natural progression of any discussion and sometimes the original subject returns with new light cast on it. It certainly seems in my opinion an odd reason for deleting any thread.

Doodledog Sat 30-Oct-21 10:26:39

You are right, Rosie, which is why (I think that) this is all based on misogyny. It’s only women who are being asked to accommodate the needs of transpeople.

Transmen aren’t forcing themselves into male wards or prison wings, and there are no calls for men to be called ‘people with penises’. I started to call them that on threads like this a while ago, to try to make a point; but of course it went over the heads of the trans supporters, and I was accused of being obsessed with penises?.

Smileless2012 Sat 30-Oct-21 09:58:27

You're right Rosie and when I read your post it reinforced for me how farcical this is becoming.

Mollygo Sat 30-Oct-21 09:55:35

Perceptive comment Rosie51.

Rosie51 Sat 30-Oct-21 09:51:43

Just a thought, why can't women have anything that's concerned just with women? The Dogs Trust doesn't consider sheep, cats or parrots. The BHF doesn't campaign for cancer treatments or the disabled. GOSH don't give a minute's campaigning for the aged. Help the Aged hasn't campaigned for the homeless. Shall we castigate every single-issue organisation for not being inclusive? Stonewall might cover a lot of interests including minor ones such as the furries, but afaik they don't campaign for heterosexual men or women. Yet all these organisations are allowed to operate in the interests of their chosen field. It's only when women want to campaign and organise for themselves and their children that suddenly there's a need to be inclusive which results in prioritising everybody else.

FarNorth Sat 30-Oct-21 08:46:19

All transwomen are male.
Some male people are dangerous to female people.
Female people should not be forced to pretend that everyone who says he is a transwoman is also a female.

The Equality Act has provision for single-sex services.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

The Prison Service doesn't use those provisions but accepts the word of male prisoners who say they are women.

How would it be to be one of the women prisoners who are locked in with some of these male people?

Can you really envisage no possibility of that being harmful to women prisoners?

Doodledog Fri 29-Oct-21 23:59:00

Mollygo

Excellent article, but I fear it will fall on stony ground.

I fear so.

Mollygo Fri 29-Oct-21 23:42:47

Excellent article, but I fear it will fall on stony ground.

nanna8 Fri 29-Oct-21 23:12:11

Excellent article. I couldn’t add anything more.

Smileless2012 Fri 29-Oct-21 23:08:03

Excellent.

Chewbacca Fri 29-Oct-21 22:58:11

I hope that this open letter, dated 29th October 2021, from Labour Women's Declaration, will allay any fears that some posters have about feminism being right wing ideology :

"We understand that the journalist, Caroline Lowbridge, responsible for this excellent article deactivated her twitter account prior to publication, in anticipation of an extreme and hostile response. We are outraged that this is felt to be necessary for what is a thorough, well-researched and balanced piece of journalism which the BBC should be praised for publishing. Lesbians have been raising the issue of ‘the cotton ceiling’ for years and we want to thank Caroline and the BBC for listening and allowing these voices to be heard.

Labour Women’s Declaration, supporting women’s sex-based rights, has more than 7,000 signatories. Our signatories are men and women concerned with the impact of allowing men to self-declare a ‘female’ identity and its impact on sex-based rights and many are lesbians. Measures to implement this belief, in advance of any legislation, are already affecting the most vulnerable women in the most difficult and dangerous circumstances. The effect on lesbian communities, especially young lesbians, has received little attention, and attempts to discuss this are shut down often with the statement that ‘this never happens’. There are now sites which record that many of these ‘unspeakable’ things do happen.

Many young lesbians find themselves under pressure not to identify themselves as such and to accept men who identify as lesbians into their social circles and dating pools. This is simply unacceptable, a blatant disregard for the rights already won and just the latest form of homophobia which asserts that lesbians have no right to assert their boundaries and to exclude men.
The frequently violent and intimidating responses to women attempting to discuss these issues will no doubt be reflected in the reaction which the BBC will now be receiving. That will tell you a great deal about why publishing such an article is much needed, to begin a discussion of issues regarding the safeguarding of women and especially women such as lesbians, whose voices are not often heard, on the impact on their lives of self-identification. There have already been articles which have commented on the disappearance of lesbian spaces, lesbian language and identities and indeed, lesbians themselves.

It is simply untrue that any man who identifies as a woman is one, in terms of legal status. Even where a GRC has been granted, specific exemptions can ensure women-only services. The Equality Act protected characteristic is gender reassignment, not gender identity. The assertion that ‘any man who says he is a woman is one’ is dogma, and those claiming to be lesbians constitute a real danger, including on dating sites which are now inclusive of many males seeking relationships with lesbians. Men who seek relationships with women are generally understood to be heterosexual. Many lesbians and gay men have objected to the Stonewall redefinition of their sexualities as ‘same-gender’ rather than ‘same-sex’ attracted. New lesbian and gay organisations demonstrate the resistance to this authoritarian and non-materialist ideology, imposed on people who have fought for decades for recognition of their rights as same-sex attracted people. The false analogy of the struggle for trans rights with those of lesbian and gay people entirely ignores the very real differences and conflicts between very different communities, and as is often the case, the lesbian view goes unheard and is completely lost in the amalgamation currently made fashionable by the LGBTQI+ lobby groups.
The issue of evidence will no doubt be raised in the criticisms you get about this piece. Women talking about rape and sexual assault, naming men as those who principally commit these crimes (as lesbians do in this article), was the beginning of the movement to highlight and work towards ending sexual violence to women in the 1970’s. We begin with the truth of what women are experiencing. We thank you for allowing the truth of women’s experiences to be heard.
There is a lack of formal study and evidence around many of the controversies in these areas. There is no hard evidence, for example, of the claimed high rates of suicide amongst trans-identified people, used to justify claims that untested drugs should be available to young people, amongst other things. The long-term effects of these drugs and their effectiveness in ameliorating the presenting problems have no proper research evidence. There is also no evidence that trans-identified people are more often subjected to violence and harassment than others. Nor is there evidence that male prisoners who self-identify as women are not a threat to women prisoners; in fact, what evidence there is makes clear that trans-identified men (‘transwomen’) demonstrate the same male pattern violence and crime as other males. Yet these claims are frequently made and go unchallenged.

When proposals are made which undermine existing safeguarding measures, sober assessment and evidence are needed before radically altering the basic premises on which our society operates. Hard-fought-for safe spaces for lesbians, and the right for women to define our own sexuality and to maintain the boundaries we choose, are threatened by proposed and prematurely implemented changes. The dogmatic insistence that ‘trans women are women’ is not shared by many people. Civil rights for those identifying as trans are commonly supported, and largely already exist, but the blanket assertion that ‘any man who claims he is a woman is one’ and must, therefore, be given access to women in all circumstances is completely unacceptable to very many women, and to those concerned with our safety.
The voices of lesbians have been absent from much of the discussion so far. We hope this important article will begin real exchanges of experience and ideas and challenge the dogma of those who deny the reality of biological sex, few of whom have the experience of being a lesbian, or indeed of being trans-identified.

Let lesbians speak and let us, as a society, address the real conflicts and dangers present in this controversy."

Chewbacca Fri 29-Oct-21 22:26:58

Surely that depends on what is said, by whom and whether there's a screenshot to prove it.

Doodledog Fri 29-Oct-21 22:26:46

castigating!

Doodledog Fri 29-Oct-21 22:26:27

trisher

You see this is what disturbs me. People who question transrights also castigate anyone who supports them as either a transactivist or as misogynistic. I don't like any philosophy that says it is wrong to question attitudes because they are held by a woman. Misogyny is hatred and contempt for women. It is not hatred or contempt to question another woman's views. Sometimes women hold views which are prejudiced, sometimes women are racist, sometimes women are discriminatory. Shuld I support the things because they are proposed by a woman? If not how can questioning a belief be mysoginistic? It is not only misusing the term it is giving women a get out of gaol free card which says you can't criticise or question me because I'm a women and if you do I'll say you are mysoginistic.

I would say that someone doing what you say, ie castigateing anyone who supports transrights as either a transactivist or as misogynistic, is wrong.

I would also say that anyone who believes that women should not have a right to have another woman carry out an intimate exam on her after she's been raped, or who believes that women should have no safe spaces, or that the very term 'woman' has no meaning, is misogynist, regardless of his or her feelings about trans rights.

I believe it was you who said that feminists always supported other women, as an argument that transmen were (according to GCFs) women, and it was others on this thread who argued against that. Which leads me to the last bit of your post, and yes, I agree that there is no reason to support everything a woman says just because she is female, and have said so on more than one occasion - even starting a thread to that effect a few months ago, in direct response to such a suggestion.

The difficulty of course, is that it is not always clear whether someone is a woman or not, as we don't have an agreement as to what it means.

Galaxy Fri 29-Oct-21 22:24:58

No I am castigating those men who think women are unable to think for themselves and are very clear about it. I dont think they are misogynistic because we disagree about something I think they are misogynists because they continually express surprise at women organising, at women being able to raise their own money etc. They offer to talk to us to tell us what to think.

trisher Fri 29-Oct-21 22:15:46

Chewbacca

^There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.^ SNAP! grin I thought the very same thing when I saw the James Morton Tweet.

Equating ONS records with something posted on Twitter isn't really an argument though is it!

trisher Fri 29-Oct-21 22:14:20

You see this is what disturbs me. People who question transrights also castigate anyone who supports them as either a transactivist or as misogynistic. I don't like any philosophy that says it is wrong to question attitudes because they are held by a woman. Misogyny is hatred and contempt for women. It is not hatred or contempt to question another woman's views. Sometimes women hold views which are prejudiced, sometimes women are racist, sometimes women are discriminatory. Shuld I support the things because they are proposed by a woman? If not how can questioning a belief be mysoginistic? It is not only misusing the term it is giving women a get out of gaol free card which says you can't criticise or question me because I'm a women and if you do I'll say you are mysoginistic.

Galaxy Fri 29-Oct-21 22:00:00

I think if you look at some of the left wing men who speak on this subject, they just cant believe that women can think for themselves it seems beyond their comprehension. So they look for explanations, it's the right wing influence, etc etc. Its hard not to sound like a drama queen but I cant begin to describe what a shock it was to me to see such misogyny from my own 'side'. Its embarrassing that I got to my age without understanding that misogyny is not party political. Being dramatic again but its hard to describe my sense of betrayal.

Chewbacca Fri 29-Oct-21 21:52:06

What new threads?

Doodledog Fri 29-Oct-21 21:50:47

The logic that claims that thinking that men shouldn't be in women's spaces is 'right wing' makes no sense to me.

I've said before that one of the first things said to me on GN was that because I question the way in which the very young are able to 'transition' I must be right wing. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now.

Galaxy Fri 29-Oct-21 21:44:28

Concerned about what. That saying men should not be in womens spaces encourages right wing thinking.
And feminism is for right wing women too, it's for women who we disagree with. It's for women who hold different politics to us.

Galaxy Fri 29-Oct-21 21:41:34

I dont care about being right. Couldnt care less. I have said in the thread I was wrong about Maya.

Doodledog Fri 29-Oct-21 21:39:13

VioletSky

Do you remember how quickly race based hate crime rose during public discussion about brexit and the strong views expressed about minorities coming here and taking "are" jobs.

Well, while these discussions are happening publically I would have no surprise if hate crimes against transgender people are rising as a result, only currently disguised by covid measures.

I'm a bit lost here. How does this explain how maths or statistics work?

Madgran77 Fri 29-Oct-21 21:21:01

What new ones VioletSky?

Mollygo Fri 29-Oct-21 21:18:14

For me the elephant in the room has already been exposed. It’s that
“Some people think they know better than science and that they can change science to suit their purpose.”
It’s there to read on several GN threads.
Violet, I’ve never put words into your mouth but please don’t stand up. It’s bad for your blood pressure. Go back to sitting patiently as you mentioned earlier.
I say this because as a feminist I care about the oppressed minority of women, which you seem to imply includes you.

Chewbacca Fri 29-Oct-21 21:11:14

tight gits grin very tight! Galaxy