Staying on topic- threads in general

trisher

Incidently my posts about the law on women's spaces and its plain statement that if admitting a transwoman would cause substantial disruption (like women not attending) then transwomen even with a GRC can be excluded have been met with derision. But that is the law. The reason it is not being correctly applied is another question.

Truth

Incidently my posts about the law on women's spaces and its plain statement that if admitting a transwoman would cause substantial disruption (like women not attending) then transwomen even with a GRC can be excluded have been met with derision. But that is the law. The reason it is not being correctly applied is another question.

Well then let's discuss that more and why I`m under the impression that one branch of feminism isn't inclusive of trans women as women

There is absolutely nothing feminist about calling women transphobic because their ideas are different to yours.

Yes violet you have.

doodledog if you won't accept ge der norms as they currently exist as an answer then what is the theoretical answer you are looking for?

Most people do identify as somewhere on the gender spectrum and there are positive reasons we have one culturally because most people want to self identify even if their sex and gender align. Most people want to be seen as the gender they identify as. It's quite different from classifying peoples capabilities based on their gender.

I have posted my views on what a woman is many times I've stopped doing so because when I do I get asked all sorts of weasily questions which are meant in some way to trip me up or catch me out and prove I am not the feminist I profess to be.
Its interesting that when I comment about others opinions and ideas about transpeople I am told they are not experts and they are not obsessed with the subject, but I can be cross examined to the Nth degree.

It would be possible for me to tell many on these threads that they are not feminists because their ideas have deviated from those of the first wave feminists. I think that it is incredibly sad that the original aims of the movement that the poor and children needed to be protected and cared for, that women cared more for people, and men cared most about property have been lost over the years. I think it is even more sad that a movement which spent over a hundred years in basic solidarity is now being split. There is absolutely nothing feminist about calling other women misogynistic because their ideas are different to yours.

Molly what's your response if my answers aren't the same as yours?

Can I still sit with you?

VioletSky

As I said above, there comes a point where asking someone a question that they have already answered just becomes a shutdown tactic because the answers are being disregarded anyway

It hasn’t been answered. The question of ‘what is a woman’, that is.

We’ve been told that it is someone who ‘presents as’ a woman, which is meaningless unless we know what a woman is. We’ve also been told that a woman is someone who ‘stands beside’ trisher and shares her values, which is too subjective to have a meaning to anyone but trisher herself.

I’d someone transitions from one gender to another, but gender norms should be challenged, how does that transition work?

Becoming a woman is a nebulous concept without a definition of ‘woman’, and transitioning gender when gender norms are fluid is also difficult to grasp.

All I am asking for is clarification from trisher’s perspective, as she has never done so. A Google search won’t give me that.

Galaxy have I though?

When I read the media etc that's what I am seeing. Headlines stating that trans people are eroding women's rights and terms and the response to that.

All I can think is that those who are sexist and transphobic must love all the infighting. It must make those people very happy indeed.

Sorry VS I must have missed your answers to questions I hadn’t asked. Most posters on here wait patiently for the answers to questions.
I sat here patiently asking questions.
I’ve sat here patiently reading responses that never quite answer the question.
If we disagree on what real feminism is, so be it. I’m unlikely to change my mind any more than you will change yours.
So do you believe . . . ?

I dont have to agree with them that's kind of the whole concept of free speech.

Violet you yourself have just made sweeping statements about what you think gender critical feminists believe, none of which I recognise as anything to do with my beliefs. You have just said those who are gender critical dont include trans people.
I have sat here patiently whilst I have been called transphobe.
I have sat here patiently whilst I have been told I dont accept transpeople.
If you knew anything about me you would know that actual free speech is probably my highest priority, so saying I wouldnt defend your right to Express your views is nonsense.

As I said above, there comes a point where asking someone a question that they have already answered just becomes a shutdown tactic because the answers are being disregarded anyway

VioletSky

Why is trisher responsible for your Google search doodledog?

Please stop telling her she is not a feminist if she doesn't align with your thinking.

You aren't a spikes person for feminism and all views are valid

Sh’s not. I am interested in her own view, not a Google search result, but I’m sure that trisher can speak for herself if she has a mind to. I’m sure we are all interested to hear what she thinks a woman is, and what it means to transition.

I’m not. I’m saying that erasing women from the language and removing their safe spaces is misogynist.

I don’t claim to speak for anyone - much less transpeople. I am very wary of those who appropriate the views of groups to which they don’t belong. Even within groups there is space for different points of view, or there will be until No Devate is mandated, that is.

As I’ve said, trisher, it’s not a case of ‘can’t be bothered’, or of my being ‘willing to accept’ anything.

Molly how many times do you want me to answer the same questions?

I've already done it several times and my answers have not changed.

I've sat here patiently while my abusive childhood was held up as proof of why I should understand concepts that aren't even proven to have happened.

I've sat here patiently while I've been told I'm not a feminist.

I've sat here patiently while I have been called a "fckwit

I've sat here patiently and answered the same questions over and over as if just asking me those same questions is proof of something and my answers are actually irrelevant.

I've sat here patiently while I've been told those things haven't happened and I've imagined them and taken the screenshots to undo the damage that does to my head.

I love and care for women and I want them to feel safe and I want the same for trans people who I accept some of as women. I do not accept men masquerading is women to achieve things they would achieve in other ways without any acceptance of trans women. I do think that safeguarding is important and we must consider the feelings of everyone in any given situation.

Those who agree I am also a feminist should be standing up for me as a woman and my right to express my views, because believe me, if roles were reversed I wouldnt stand for it and I would not view those who are expressing their views in a halmful wany as acceptable for agreeing with me.

Basically what happens on here seems to be that most posters have no issue with trans who make no attempt to
1. erode natal women’s rights to safe spaces,
2. to jobs and
3. to places e.g.sport where female against TW creates an unfair advantage for the TW, and
4. the right to have the word woman mean a female.
Most posters believe the scientific fact that TWANW which is science not phobia.

So trisher and VS why do you take issue with any of that?
Do you believe it’s right to erode natal women’s right to safe spaces?
Do you believe it’s right for TW to take jobs aimed at natal women?
Do you believe that it’s right that men (TW) should take women’s places in sport because it gives them an unfair advantage and a better chance of winning?
Do you believe that women should be denied the right to be called women, or mothers?
(*Please don’t resort to saying it’s up to law to sort that out, I’m asking what you believe*.)
Feminism is acting for the interests of women. Some ‘feminists’ want to broaden the term to include the rights of TW even where that is detrimental to females.
Maybe a new transfeminist group would be more appropriate.

Feminism, at its core, fights oppression.

Now there seem to be two branches, one that fights against oppression and includes trans people and one that does not include trans people believing that trans people existing somehow oppresses women .

Yet, many trans are indeed feminists and many men these days also include themselves in the ranks of feminists and support the fight against oppression.

Those who do not accept the right of trans people to self identify and take that further by alienating other actual feminists are doing nothing but silencing other feminists and saying "you can't sit with us"... Not helpful in the grand scheme of things to try throw others out of your own ranks for not aligning with the same views.

Mostly not helpful because you can not achieve that. I am still a feminist.

The reverse argument has not happened on this thread or others, neither trisher or myself have said that you cannot be a feminist if you are not trans inclusive.

So why isn't anyone actually thinking about the divisive damage these conversations are doing instead of focusing on two discussion boards out of many where some views have more voices than others as if that proves a quality of rightness.

It doesn't.

Not all demographics are represented by either.

VioletSky

Spikes person.. Weirdly appropriate

Bit like me saying bogited the other day. Might talk to Merriam and Webster about it

That's a whole new dictionaryVioletSky it would be great.

So you were quite willing to accept the much publicised concept that self ID meant just decidingto change gender when you feel like it, because you aren't "obsessed" with transissues so didn't bother to discover any more. But you constantly refer to transwomen removing female spaces and erasing women. I would have thought anyone using such emotive language would want to know more.
As for the definition of "woman" well I thought we were in favour of challenging gender norms and the word woman is a gender based title, so if it's meaning is changing isn't that a good thing? Is it possible to challenge gender norms if we continue to use old fashioned language and definitions. If the word woman changes doesn't the word man also have to change. Isn't that progress towards the eradication of gender?

As far as rights go non-binary people are not permitted to use the term on any documents. Legally recognising them would be a real step towards gender neutral policies.

Spikes person.. Weirdly appropriate

Bit like me saying bogited the other day. Might talk to Merriam and Webster about it

Why is trisher responsible for your Google search doodledog?

Please stop telling her she is not a feminist if she doesn't align with your thinking.

You aren't a spikes person for feminism and all views are valid

I think it is clear from my posts that I have made myself aware of trans issues - 'investigate' is a bit strong, as I am not obsessed by them.

Many of the aims of the TRA movement are misogynistic - how could it not be so to want to remove female spaces and modify the language so that women are erased, and the very concept of what it is to be a woman is unclear. I note that you never did give an explanation for what you think that transpeople are rejecting or laying claim to - beyond that 'they 'present as' women, and they 'stand next to you' politically.

It might be easier to see how your feelings are in any way connected to feminism if you were able to say what a 'woman' actually is, and what, in your opinion, 'transitioning' actually involves.

Agreed, Galaxy.

trisher, please stop being unpleasant. It's not that I haven't 'bothered' to know what people want - it's more that I don't pretend to know more than what transpeople personally known to me have said, and I don't pretend to speak for 'most people', be they trans or otherwise
If I have been unpleasant by questioning why anyone should post about transissues without bothering to investigate what on earth have those people who have called me "mysoginistic" and "anti-feminist" who have cast aspersions on my support for women and women's rights been?

So most of the transpeople I know are gender critical, they know you cant change sex, and are comfortable with womens spaces such as prisons, refuges and sport being only for women. So I take it it's ok for me to listen to those transpeople.