M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

Chewbacca, it's not equivalent. You don't need to understand how pronoun badges help trans people feel safe you just need to listen and know that it does

Now that won't be true for everyone, which is why it is a choice.

Like I said, I don't feel safe in communal women's spaces and I've said why that probably is but I don't need people to understand, I just need them to listen and know it's the truth

Chestnut

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

This quote facility isn't working, is it!

Chewbacca didn't say it was weird.

Chestnut

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

How is it doing anything like that to say those who wish to have their chosen pronoun on their badge may do so? The only people who seem to object appear to be those who say they don't need to know because they will never use them (in which case don't look at the badge). I suppose really prejudiced anti-trans people might object in some way but do we want to consider the views of such narrow minded and intolerant people? Which would be necessary if we were trying to please all of the people.

Not weird at all Chewbacca. This whole business reminds me of the saying you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is what this is attempting to do and it won't work.

Chewbacca

^Why do you need to understand?^

By the same token; if we don't need to understand, then we don't need to be informed of a total stranger's gender politics either. If I don't need to know his political bias or religious beliefs, why do I need to be informed of his chosen pronoun? Why does he feel the need to have his beliefs validated by telling them to random strangers who have no input on it, no reason to know and no interest? If it's because of a weakness of self belief, is it fair to expect total strangers to provide that self validation?
You can't have it both ways. Either you choose to be true to yourself and your identity and get on with your life. Or you choose your identity but have to wear a badge that's requesting total strangers to recognise your identity, which would indicate that there's a fragility in yourself that your asking them to help you deal with. It's not their job to do that.

What weird conclusions some people draw from things.
I suppose you could say the same thing about any identity indicator worn by anyone. Like an old school tie for example or a regimental badge. Why do people choose to wear them?

Why do you need to understand?

By the same token; if we don't need to understand, then we don't need to be informed of a total stranger's gender politics either. If I don't need to know his political bias or religious beliefs, why do I need to be informed of his chosen pronoun? Why does he feel the need to have his beliefs validated by telling them to random strangers who have no input on it, no reason to know and no interest? If it's because of a weakness of self belief, is it fair to expect total strangers to provide that self validation?
You can't have it both ways. Either you choose to be true to yourself and your identity and get on with your life. Or you choose your identity but have to wear a badge that's requesting total strangers to recognise your identity, which would indicate that there's a fragility in yourself that your asking them to help you deal with. It's not their job to do that.

stating our gender on our emails/ name badges etc. is part of the ideology that someone’s gender has more significance than any other part of their identity, including their sex. It is this ideology that then leads to males being in female prisons.

Violet you said wearing these badges makes trans people feel safe. A statement of fact. I said I failed to see how that would make most of them feel comfortable. What do you mean by saying I don’t need to understand? How very rude and patronising. I am not a child asking questions about things I don’t need to understand so kindly don’t address me as such. I presume you are the authority on such issues. Perhaps you would enlighten me as to your qualifications.

It's all a choice and doesn't really effect us too much. It's more for the individual proud of who they are and sharing it with us.

No! I love Cookie Monster!

The Bearded Lady with untreated hormonal imbalance is just as farfetched, but some trans defenders use her as an example of why we mustn't assume that anyone is the gender that first springs to mind at first sight.

And the Prime Minister is Cookie Monster, isn't he? Perfectly natural mistake to make, not farfetched at all.

From the outcry, I thought it was obligatory.

When I buy things in a department store, I don't have any need to know what anyone's personal feelings are about their sex/gender, any more than which denomination or faith they worship in, if any, but if they wish to wear a gold cross, or a six-pointed star, or a discreet badge in the store's colours informing me that, contrary to first impressions, they regard themselves as male or female, then so be it.

I would feel I was under unnecessary pressure if they prayed with customers before letting them into the shop, insisted on all male customers wearing a yarmulka, or harangued me for abusively discriminating against them if without my reading glasses I hadn't registered that they wanted to be known by their chosen pronoun rather than by the one that matched their muscular build, facial hair and bass voice.

SueDonim

Suppose your glasses broke when you had this hypothetical accident in M&S so you couldn’t then read Chris’s badge. Are you then meant to ask Chris what pronouns they use, whilst you’re stemming the blood running from your nose, nursing your broken arm and trying to ignore the headache you’ve got from concussion?

Why do far fetched scenarios prove anything?

I'm sure in that case no one would really worry too much. You have a concussion, you might think they have 3 heads and the prime minister is Cookie Monster

Suppose your glasses broke when you had this hypothetical accident in M&S so you couldn’t then read Chris’s badge. Are you then meant to ask Chris what pronouns they use, whilst you’re stemming the blood running from your nose, nursing your broken arm and trying to ignore the headache you’ve got from concussion?

Elegran

The staff should be told that those who wish to make it clear that their chosen gender is not what it seems from their appearance/voice/clothes/habits may wear badges with chosen pronouns, as may those who wish to display that their pronouns matching their natal sex and gender. (with the various standard badges for all, in tasteful M&S colours, available from supervisors or HR. No freelance slogans on the shop floor.)

However, those who have no mismatch and feel that "what you see is what you get, I don't need a luggage label" should not be penalised for choosing not to wear any badge at all, any more than anyone who does wear a badge publicising their trans gender should be penalised either, officially or privately.

That's not happening, it's a choice

How long have women fought the battle that what we wear has nothing to do with rape.

It's the same issue really

The staff should be told that those who wish to make it clear that their chosen gender is not what it seems from their appearance/voice/clothes/habits may wear badges with chosen pronouns, as may those who wish to display that their pronouns matching their natal sex and gender. (with the various standard badges for all, in tasteful M&S colours, available from supervisors or HR. No freelance slogans on the shop floor.)

However, those who have no mismatch and feel that "what you see is what you get, I don't need a luggage label" should not be penalised for choosing not to wear any badge at all, any more than anyone who does wear a badge publicising their trans gender should be penalised either, officially or privately.

trisher

Isn't it interesting how when you present a scenario that is perfectly possible the argument is then shifted to something else. Actually "Chris" is non-binary and prefers the pronoun "they" which you would know if they were wearing their badge with their preferred pronoun on it.
But actually the same use of pronouns applies whatever the reason you might need to communicate with the store about a member of staff.
As for the poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?
Really!! I seem to remember much the same being said about gay people. They shouldn't hold hands or express emotions in public because they just draw attention to themselves and attract condemnation.

Yes

It's victim blaming

Germanshepherdsmum

Violet I fail to see how advertising their status to all their colleagues and the customers in shop would make most trans people feel comfortable. I suspect they would suffer a fair bit of hostility, maybe even violence, and I can’t believe anyone would want to put themselves up for that.
trisher what’s wrong with using their name and ‘they’?

Why do you need to understand?

It's like the assumption that all women feel safe in communal women's spaces and that is what we all want.

We don't all want that.

Isn't it interesting how when you present a scenario that is perfectly possible the argument is then shifted to something else. Actually "Chris" is non-binary and prefers the pronoun "they" which you would know if they were wearing their badge with their preferred pronoun on it.
But actually the same use of pronouns applies whatever the reason you might need to communicate with the store about a member of staff.
As for the poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?
Really!! I seem to remember much the same being said about gay people. They shouldn't hold hands or express emotions in public because they just draw attention to themselves and attract condemnation.

trisher

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Dear M&S, I had an accident in your xx store on Wednesday and your staff member Chris cared for me, for which I'm very grateful. Chris did an excellent job and deserves the highest praise. Please pass on my thanks once again. Best wishes Rosie.

which would work very well if Chris wasn't wearing a pronoun badge or if in my distress at my accident I'd missed registering the pronouns on Chris's badge.

Of course this still isn't using third person pronouns in conversation with Chris.

nanna8, I do so agree.

Though having said that, I do still find the odd thing. Bought a brilliant padded coat last year - saw me through daily walks in every sort of winter weather - and I have to say that their ‘cosy high waisted jeggings’ - I bought some recently - are brilliant.

Properly high waisted, no need to keep hitching them up, which is more than I can say for most supposedly HW things.

I was v irritated when I wanted a 2nd pair, only to find them out of stock, but they’re back in again - at least in my size, hooray.

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.

Is that based on a real life experience?

I'm guessing not.

No more likely than an assistant, who looks male and is wearing a badge with "Bill - female" on it. But poor old Bill, far from feeling/being safer has actually made himself a more obvious target by some customers who have an issue with it. Why make yourself more vulnerable?

Violet I fail to see how advertising their status to all their colleagues and the customers in shop would make most trans people feel comfortable. I suspect they would suffer a fair bit of hostility, maybe even violence, and I can’t believe anyone would want to put themselves up for that.
trisher what’s wrong with using their name and ‘they’?

I actually already explained how this makes trans people feel safe and how it protects them from being misgendered

Well lets try this.You have an accident in M&S you are cared for by a staff member called "Chris". You want to tell the store how well Chris did, you use pronouns.