M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

I don't object to them so much as feel bewildered about the need for them.

How will badges make anyone safer (safer from what?). If anything, drawing attention to someone's 'difference' is likely to make them more of a target.

Nobody has explained when or how they are likely to be useful, as third-person pronouns are almost always used in the absence of the person to whom they refer.

As long as it doesn't become obligatory.

If having a badge with the wearers preferred pro noun is what they want to do then what is the problem, it does not effect anyone else.

AGAA4 That is one of the saddest reminders of a time when gay people were subject to so much bad feeling.

AGAA4

Franbern I agree that in time this will no longer be an issue. My grandchildren accept that people are all different. When I was young in the 50s/60s intolerance of anyone who wasn't what they called "normal" was rife and life was hell for those people.
My mum's friend's son was dragged onto wasteland and beaten to death because he was gay.
I hope that everyone will be accepted as just people whatever they identify as in times to come.

I hope so too.

I remember when Reddit banned the Gender Critical forum last year as it was just rabid and those who opposed that subreddit were huge in numbers and demanded that Reddit ban forums that were discriminatory. They listened. Young people are so accepting now compared with when I was at school. Soon no platform will allow that sort of thing

Who is denying anyone the right to wear such a badge? Not me. Wear one telling me your religion, marital status, age, height, or favourite music but I doubt very much any of it is something I need to know. I'm still wondering when you'd need to use someone's preferred third person pronoun while talking to them. I'd use you "can you tell me where..." or their name "hello June".

Rosie51

trisher

But why is it OK for you to deny them the pronoun they choose Rosie51. If someone used the wrong pronoun about you I assume you wouldn't be happy, but they are just epected to put up with it?

@trisher how dare you?!! I've been occupied all evening but this is the lowest of the low! I have NEVER denied anyone their preferred pronouns but you just can't help yourself can you? Prepared to lie and libel just about anyone. If you ever make such an accusation against me again it won't be GN censorship you'll have to worry about, so be very sure what allegations you're making. My contempt for you can barely go higher. Perhaps you'd like to quote where I've denied anyone their preferred pronouns or maybe you'd finally have the humility to sincerely apologise!!!!!

Why should I apologise Rosie51 there are people whose gender it is difficult to tell at first glance, wearing a badge which gives the pronoun they prefer makes their choice evident, denying them the right to wear such a badge is denying them the right to use the pronoun they prefer, because how would you know what it was without the badge? As for the straw man argument of I never use it why do I need to know?. It is precisely that.
I'm ignoring your outrageous threats. Perhaps you were 'occupied' with too many glasses of wine. They are though very reportable.

Never mind all this ,what M and S desperately need is a few new fashion buyers that aren’t old fashioned frumps. I used to buy a fair bit from them online but now the sizes are weird, the cuts are nasty and ill fitting and the stuff looks like it is designed for old school marms. It isn’t cheap, either.

Franbern I agree that in time this will no longer be an issue. My grandchildren accept that people are all different. When I was young in the 50s/60s intolerance of anyone who wasn't what they called "normal" was rife and life was hell for those people.
My mum's friend's son was dragged onto wasteland and beaten to death because he was gay.
I hope that everyone will be accepted as just people whatever they identify as in times to come.

Apologies if this has been said before, but an article on this in today’s Times says that the pronouns will not be compulsory.

I do struggle at times to remember that one of my teenage grandchildren is a 'they/them' - and I must say they always put up with great good humour when I get it wrong. I am getting better as time progresses and have apologised to them for my often mistakes by crocheting them a headband in blue/pink/white which denotes non-binary.

Cannot see any problem with any of this, in fact I would rather see youngsters as non-binary rather than tiny little girls made-up and dressed as Princesses, etc.

As for M&S - think in the great scheme of things going on in the world at the moment, such badges are not something which I can really get worked up about.

I will not be around over the next thirty-fifty years, but do think that by that time, future generations will be as bewildered about thjis times attitude to bi-sexual, non-binary, etc as our generation is to how people like Alan Turing were treated back in the 50's.

Chewbacca

I think Gwyneth raised a very good point too. How will M&S (and others who decide to follow suit) address their customers now? Sir? Madam? When the shop assistant in John Lewis asked me "Would you like your receipt putting in the bag Madam?" should I have accused her of being transphobic? And am I transphobic by assuming that she was a "she"?

What a poisoned chalice they've just drunk from........... fun for all

I think Gwyneth raised a very good point too. How will M&S (and others who decide to follow suit) address their customers now? Sir? Madam? When the shop assistant in John Lewis asked me "Would you like your receipt putting in the bag Madam?" should I have accused her of being transphobic? And am I transphobic by assuming that she was a "she"?

The point is not whether we want to use particular pronouns, but that it is very rarely necessary to use a pronoun other than 'you' when addressing someone, so this is, as far as I can see, an empty gesture that seems to be an attempt to position M&S as having a 'finger on the pulse'. I think, however, to mix my metaphors, that it will backfire, as the tide is turning.

Thank God, I thought it was just me. I have never addressed anyone as she/her/hers or he/him/his. Apparently this is evidence of fully paid up membership of a bigoted group. So if any staff member of M&S should ever refer to me as she/her just because I present as female I should be able to demand their sacking or at the very least re-education....... yeah I bet that would go down well ......

Also, as mentioned but not responded to on the last trans thread, several of us have 'unisex' names, and are 'misgendered' on a regular basis, without getting upset about it.

Whilst I understand that there is a difference between someone secure in their gender and someone who identifies out of their sex, and also that it is different when a mistake is made on email as opposed to in a face to face situation, I still feel that it is a huge assumption to say that others will be 'unhappy' when they are misgendered.

To back up Rosie, and to make this point yet again, many of us on these threads have made it clear that we do use people's preferred pronouns when we know them. Why wouldn't we? As we keep saying, we are not transphobic.

The point is not whether we want to use particular pronouns, but that it is very rarely necessary to use a pronoun other than 'you' when addressing someone, so this is, as far as I can see, an empty gesture that seems to be an attempt to position M&S as having a 'finger on the pulse'. I think, however, to mix my metaphors, that it will backfire, as the tide is turning.

trisher

But why is it OK for you to deny them the pronoun they choose Rosie51. If someone used the wrong pronoun about you I assume you wouldn't be happy, but they are just epected to put up with it?

@trisher how dare you?!! I've been occupied all evening but this is the lowest of the low! I have NEVER denied anyone their preferred pronouns but you just can't help yourself can you? Prepared to lie and libel just about anyone. If you ever make such an accusation against me again it won't be GN censorship you'll have to worry about, so be very sure what allegations you're making. My contempt for you can barely go higher. Perhaps you'd like to quote where I've denied anyone their preferred pronouns or maybe you'd finally have the humility to sincerely apologise!!!!!

Well you never know Chewbacca events seem to be moving that way!!

It was meant to be "yet" instead of yes.

I accept what makes people feel safe or unsafe and their reasons don't matter.

If these badges help trans people feel safe, I believe them, they have their reasons.

I hate communal changing rooms or bathrooms and dont feel safe in them, I prefer seperate facilities. Baring in mind I've been abused by women, that probably explains my fears.

Young women giggling at my body after I just had a baby in a communal changing room.

Having IBS, cubicles in a shared bathroom are a nightmare for me.

My grandmother allowed me to be sexually abused by her husband as a child so I don't trust all women in shared "safe spaces".

I don't automatically feel safe around women.

So seperate facilities make me feel safe and I also have my reasons for needing/wanting them. No one needs to understand that but there should be options so everyone can feel safe and that includes women and trans women.

VioletSky

Doodledog I don't understand why having separate secure facilities and changing rooms that are essentially unisex wouldn't help some women feel safe... Yes I accept that they feel the way they do without needing to be able to understand their reasons

I don't understand this, sorry. You seem to be talking about two conflicting sets of circumstances.

Separate secure facilities (if, by this, you mean jails?) are safer for women where men are excluded, particularly men who are rapists or guilty of other sex offences.

'Unisex' changing rooms would make a lot of women feel unsafe, largely because the sort of man who would insist on a right to be in there is unlikely to be the the sort who would seem unthreatening or in anyway sympathetic to the feelings of women.

Will they continue to use ‘Sir’ and ‘Madame’ or will this be deemed unacceptable?

Good question Gwyneth. Maybe we'll all be asked to choose a badge at the entrance and pin it to our coats whilst we shop? I'm going for "Hiirrr".

M &S may need to think about ordering lots of badges to allow for those who change their gender on a daily basis. It does happen. We have a person living nearby who changes gender frequently and dresses accordingly including hair style. Will instructions be given to staff re addressing customers? Will they continue to use ‘Sir’ and ‘Madame’ or will this be deemed unacceptable?

GrannyMacawell

Violetsky do you think , as a trans ally, that a man who who identifies as a women, but is still a biological man should be allowed in the swimming pool communal female changing room?

I answered you as best I could. I don't have all the answers and I do want women to feel safe.

So why are you saying I didn't answer or what I am saying is just "waffle"?

If I am doing my best to answer you and you are dismissing my answers and refusing to answer my questions, so. you are in fact grilling me.

Why on earth would I want to engage with that? I'm not relentlessly questioning anyone and expecting them to know all the answers.

This is a discussion. Have a discussion or please don't expect me to engage with you further.

Calistemon

What a storm in a M&S teapot!
If some people want to have their preferred pronouns on their badge there's always a Sharpie pen.

Well it isn't the trans allies getting het up about it.
I think perhaps the name badges remain M&S property and you could be accused of defacing them.

Golly can’t see why everyone is so hyped up over this, staff asked for it and staff who want to put on their pronouns on their badges can. Not a biggie. Things change and evolve. I remember my mother getting het up that the word gay changed meanings from ‘happy and bright’ to its current meaning. I sighed and rolled my eyes at her, the same way my sons roll their eyes at my dh when he bemoans whatever new thing he’s read in the paper he doesn’t get.
That reminds me I need to buy some new knickers from M&S!

Which ideas and beliefs are these, please?

The idea that a man can say he's a woman and believes it's true? So all women should nod nicely and agree?