Men in women's changing rooms - not transwomen, ordinary men

Hetty58

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

We are talking about men claiming to be women to access female spaces. The fact that this your friend's cross-dressing husband is gay does not mean that those objecting to his being in a female loo (if they object) is homophobic.

Homophobia is fear of (or aversion to) gay people because they are gay. It has nothing to do with objecting to their using women's facilities.

You may as well say that someone who complains at a man with a beard being in a ladies' changing room is beardist, and ignore the fact that it is because he is a man in a female space that they complain. Not about his beard, not about his maleness, but because he is a man in a woman's changing room.

I am not aware of any men of my acquaintance who are a threat to women, regardless of their sexuality. I still don't want them next to me in a changing room, though, any more than I want to go into a gents' loo or locker room. And if ever I end up in jail, or in a hospital ward, I don't want them in the next bed when I am vulnerable, whether they are gay, straight or uncertain. That doesn't make me homophobic or man-phobic - it makes me aware of context and appropriateness.

Daisy79, not yet, we're very old-fashioned over here. I was shocked, at the age of 16, to find unisex loos in a Paris youth hostel - along with unisex bedrooms (and that was in the 1960's).

Dads do take their little daughters into men's loos, though, by necessity, if there's no convenient, unisex 'disabled' loo.

Unisex changing rooms are quite common in the US now. Been that way for a long time. Is that not the case in the UK?

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

I’m sure you think you are right ?? Hetty58.
I suppose you also think there have been no men only toilets either, and that women regularly go in and perch on the urinals.
It’s not homophobia and transphobia. In the past, transwomen may very well have used female changing rooms; as you say, we don’t check. But they would not have been drawing attention to the fact that they are really men or claiming that because today is their ‘I’m a woman’ day, they should be allowed in female only spaces.
These TWANW are doing more more harm to the trans they claim to be fighting for, alongside getting their kicks out of upsetting women and girls.
They are the ones who are, as you say, shameful.

It never ceases to astound me that allegedly intelligent people are still conflating homophobia and transphobia.

Why do some on here have a permanent bee in their bonnets about this?

Perhaps for the same reason that some on here are still droning on about Brexit more than 5 years after the event. Or for the same reason that some on here bang on about Boris Johnson and his pathetic leadership. Or for the same reason that some on here go over and over their estrangement problems, still looking for answers. We're discussing the subject because it interests us and if you perceive that to be "homophobic and transphobic" - well, that's your opinion and you're as entitled to it as we are ours. Nobody dragged you by force and demanded that you open this thread hetty58. No one insisted that you had to read it and comment; you did so by choice. Just like us.

The difference is that now men can access all areas just by saying that they are female, rather than because they have transitioned.

What has any of this to do with homophobia? I would dispute that concern about the erasure of women is transphobic, as I know for certain that I am not anything of the kind, but I can at least see the link that you are making. At the risk of repeating myself, (yet again), however, homophobia is entirely irrelevant.

Again??? Why do some on here have a permanent bee in their bonnets about this? It's just ridiculous. At risk of repeating myself (yet again) there have never been any 'women only' changing rooms, toilets etc. That's a fact. I know that for certain - as nobody ever checks whether we're female, do they?

I think this is just homophobia and transphobia, plain and simple - shameful!

This is the truth, and it is so dispiriting when women who speak out against it in favour of women's rights are accused of being anti-feminist. It feels so much worse when other women put the feelings of men over those of their own sex, and see those of women as irrelevant.

This, absolutely! I've had to take a step back, it is so draining, frustrating and generally depressing to have to keep justifying your beliefs that women are a sex class, that they deserve respect, fairness and privacy as that sex class, and that those rights and expectations do not impact any other class of human (unless they wish to trample female rights into oblivion!) That any worker in a store can say as long as they're carrying female clothing (????) anyone (even obvious males) must be allowed in the female changing rooms just beggars belief. Perverts allowed free access as long as they're accompanied by a hanger from the female clothing section. I so wish more women would vote with their purses. These outlets would soon revise their priorities when the bottom line went from black to red.

Brilliant post Doodledog. You sum up what I think, but put it so much better than I could.

Dickens and Nandalot what a horrible experience for you both. I’ve been in hospital twice when female patients with dementia were making life exceptionally difficult for other patients and the staff said there was little they could do, but to find male patients causing this kind of trouble when you are ill really is untenable.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
"People who claim to be defending trans rights are actually stamping all over women's rights. Unless they are stopped in their tracks, the word 'woman' will be meaningless, and obviously when the concept of a woman has gone, so have women's rights"

Thankful to all female activist who fight for womens rights - sadly many loose their jobs, are abused, trolled, targeted or receive a police warning on their records for their views. Sadly many organisations are caught up in this war of attrition and bow to minority. Enough is enough.

Nandalot

*Dickens*, were we in the same hospital at the same time? I had exactly the same experience!

... I live near Cheltenham in Gloucestershire!

Of course, there are men around like that and I suppose they do end up in hospital - so maybe just a co-incidence, as there are a lot of mixed bays now...

That's good to hear.

Of course changing rooms/loos are tricky for dads with young daughters (although I'd expect most 11/12 year olds to manage on their own), but men should not be allowed in.

Of course, the problem starts when the man says he identifies as female - it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the dad you describe had done so.

The other side of the coin.

I was in a Next changing room recently, (Womens) and I heard an assistant asking a chap to leave, saying he wasn’t allowed in there. He was a dad accompanying his daughter, unsure of age but about 11/12 I think. He made no fuss but asked if he could stand outside to check on her ‘trying on’. Another customer offered to keep an eye on her, but the assistant said they would look after her.

Everyone was courteous and pleasant, but the staff were quite strict about it.

On the front cover of my Women’s Institute magazine a couple of months back was a photo of a new member. On reading the article it confirmed that the person was a transwoman. So even the WI is bowing to the trans lobby group.

Now before I am accused of being anti trans I can confirm I was regularly in touch with my late transwoman cousin and there was no animosity between us. Everyone has a right to do what suits them with regard to their sex (or should I say gender) but the WI IMO is for women, as the name implies.

Chewbacca

This particular line caught my eye: 'We have to be very careful, it's a very sensitive time and it's very easy to offend people

But it doesn't matter one iota if the "people who are offended" are women. Only a man's feelings are to be protected; whether they're natal, trans or bi. Male privilege is to be protected at all costs.

This is the truth, and it is so dispiriting when women who speak out against it in favour of women's rights are accused of being anti-feminist. It feels so much worse when other women put the feelings of men over those of their own sex, and see those of women as irrelevant.

People who claim to be defending trans rights are actually stamping all over women's rights. Unless they are stopped in their tracks, the word 'woman' will be meaningless, and obviously when the concept of a woman has gone, so have women's rights. I have yet to meet a trans rights activist who can even define what a woman is, as if they did that, they would have to concede that it is not, and never can be, a man. The nearest they come is to say that being a woman is 'a feeling', that can apply to those with male or female bodies, and that you can tell if someone is a woman because they call themselves 'she'.

It's not just a political fight - it affects basic things like privacy to change amongst other women, to have specialist female health care, to compete against other women in sport and to draw on accurate figures that show things like pay differentials and poverty rates (ie ones that aren't skewed by having men identifying as female in the statistics). Many women (if they are lucky) don't stay in hospitals very often, and most never go to jail or to domestic violence refuges, so the plight of those who do is hidden, but it doesn't take much insight to imagine how it must feel to be incarcerated with a male sex offender, or to run from a violent man only to find another is calling himself Gladys and staying in the refuge that feminists fought for as a female-only sanctuary.

It's interesting that there are those who say that they want corroboration before believing a report on this in the Daily Mail. It is far from being my paper of choice, but I would take the view that if even the DM are saying that women's rights are being eroded and is calling for a more feminist approach, then things have reached a pretty pass.

Dickens, were we in the same hospital at the same time? I had exactly the same experience!

I was in hospital in a mixed bay, with male and female wards. One of the men kept coming in our ward and had to be led out again by the nurses - when they were around.

He continually came back. On one occasion when there was no staff (they really were busy, rushed off their feet), I told him very politely that he should not be in the female ward. I was met with a torrent of abuse, the F word, the lot. He was actually quite threatening. OK, I'm sure he had 'issues', and judging from his rhetoric, it was personal. When I mentioned it eventually to a nurse, she was very apologetic but said there was nothing they could do except ask him to go back to his room (he had a side room). Some of the other women were quite scared and afraid to sleep because he was wandering around at all times of the night. I suggested they lock him in his room at night - and she was horrified. I wonder how horrified she would have been if he'd actually attacked one of the female patients...

I find this just unacceptable.

Women hold the power here, don't use any brand that back males using women's changing rooms.

It's all over Twatter Jackiest and Zara has been asked to comment, so it looks legit.

We should remember this is the Daily Mail which is not known for honest reporting. I will reserve judgement until I hear the story from a reliable source.

Chewbacca

Indeed so Kalu but the hard fought for women's rights have been sold out so that men, in any guise of their choosing, don't get their feelings hurt. But we've been assured by those, who are so much more progressive and forward thinking than us, that it will all be fine. Women don't need a safe space to call their own, even when their in their underwear trying on clothes, in a vulnerable position in a hospital bed or in a women's refuge or prison. Someone will be along shortly to reassure us again.

Good post Chewbacca. I totally agree.

Ridiculous.

Indeed so Kalu but the hard fought for women's rights have been sold out so that men, in any guise of their choosing, don't get their feelings hurt. But we've been assured by those, who are so much more progressive and forward thinking than us, that it will all be fine. Women don't need a safe space to call their own, even when their in their underwear trying on clothes, in a vulnerable position in a hospital bed or in a women's refuge or prison. Someone will be along shortly to reassure us again.