Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

I really wish someone would tell me how it works. It seems so complicated to me, but so simple to True Believers.

You have a word in your head, but don't know what it means. You know what it looks like, and would more than likely recognise one on the street, but you can't define what it is, even though you are one yourself. Because you just know.

Other people want to be one, but you're not sure what it is they want to be. You do, however, know that they are one, very definitely, even though they really can't be, as becoming one requires a transition and a certificate, which it couldn't if they were one already. You will argue with anyone who tells you otherwise, although you have to refuse to answer a lot of their questions, as you really don't know the answers.

When people become one, in most cases nothing really has changed, which is strange, as if they weren't one before and nothing has happened in the meantime, how can they be one now? But they just are the thing you can't define - you know it, even you don't know what the thing is.

The chances are that until relatively recently you knew exactly what one was - in fact not only were you were in step with the vast majority of the population in your definition, but you were one yourself - but then some men told you that knowing what one is is restrictive, and denies people their right to be their true selves, so you no longer know what one is, even though it is the same as it was then, and even though you still are one.

Interestingly, although you don't know what one is, you know for certain that the people who aren't one but have become one can't be told apart from the people who have always been one, which has got to be confusing.

From what you remember from when you did know what one was, those who have always been one have certain things in common, but these are not shared by those who have become one, so obviously those things can't be very important, except that they are the very things that would make one what one is, if only you knew what that was.

It's all very tricky, isn't it?

Oh and trisher, it’s a lie.
The fact that you don’t believe it doesn’t make it any less of a lie. You’re probably floating on a little cloud that says, “Mollygo didn’t ask me if I believe transwomen are female, only if I believe they are women. Since trisher doesn’t have have a definition of woman (see previous posts) and GJ believes in pretend trans (25.12.21@10:41) she can trot out the lie without thinking she’s a liar.
Trisher, do you actually believe TW are , or can change into female then?
Yes= ??? you believe a lie.
No or no answer = you don’t believe transwomen are female or can change into females.

It’s biologically impossible to change sex.

Transwomen are not women and never will be, but GagaJo could well be male and be Spartacus. Who knows?

So do you know what it is you are saying they are, then?

I'm Spartacus. Trans women are women.

But you don't know what a woman is, so how can you say that transwomen are women? It just makes no sense.

It isn't a lie Transwomen are women. you may not like it, you may not believe it. But I do, so do the transwomen, so do many others. If you choose not to believe it that's up to you. But saying it's a lie is not true, a lie is an untrue statement with the intention to deceive. Neither of which apply.
And so yes it is transphobic because it maligns transpeople

Thank you for the answer.
??? send me a link to that trisher.
Are Liverpool or Manchester a big big enough cities to worry you?
But at least you would report them if they seemed threatening.
Next question. Should we be called phobic for not believing lies i.e. that transwomen are women?
Yes= we should be called phobic
No or no answer= we should not be called phobic.

They may be but as many of you knew nothing about preferred pronouns until you heard it on GN I don't think it's general practice.
Eh?

I don't know about 'many of us' (and have no idea how you would know either), but I did not need GN to tell me about preferred pronouns! I have a friend with a non-binary child, I work with a lot of young adults and have a circle of friends and professional contacts who encompass all sexualities and shades of opinion. Of course I knew about preferred pronouns! I also know of many people who have been told by HR that they should add pronouns to email sigs and Zoom/Teams screens. Not all comply, but only because they are more senior - younger people have no real choice, and this sort of thing may contribute to the fiction that all young people have bought the kool aid when it comes to trans issues.

I do not confine my circle to those who are like me, which is why I found it so strange when you, GagaJo and VS all said that their own circles were so limited in scope.

I've seen women threatened because they looked at another girl the wrong way in the ladies.

Hang on Mollygo I thought the accepted belief on here was that transmen are women and should use women's facilities, are you now saying they shouldn't because they look like men?

Probably wouldn't say anything to anyone. If the building was supervised I might report them if they seemed threatening.
One thing you learn in big cities don't challenge people, you never know what they'll do (and that includes girls)

Oh no! Now we can be called phobic for not believing lies.
Incidentally if I’m faced with a transwoman who looks like a woman in a place where men shouldn’t be I wouldn’t question their sex. If I’m faced with someone who looks and behaves like a man in a place where only women should be I would question their right to be there.
Are you saying you wouldn’t?
Answer yes= you would question it.
Answer no or no answer = you wouldn’t question their right to be there.
Re Bias. A small group of transpeople and others demonstrate bias in their refusal to allow women’s rights.

Doodledog

Yes, you said some time ago that you didn't believe that people were being told that they had to declare their preferred pronouns. They are, however, and I did find something that backed this up. I'm not digging it out for you again - if you go back to the right thread, it will be on there.

How is the transphobic lecturer parallel with a racist one? Racism is abhorrent, but not based on the idea that someone is saying they are something they are not. Someone who does not believe that TWAW is by no means necessarily transphobic. so there is no link. Neither has anything to do with the thread, in any case.

Have you decided which of your statements you are going to retract yet, btw?

They may be but as many of you knew nothing about preferred pronouns until you heard it on GN I don't think it's general practice. Certainly not in the circles I move in where I have been asked but no-one has demanded.
The transhobic lecturer cannot treat all students equally just as a racist lecturer cannot treat all students equally. Their beliefs cause bias.

Yes, you said some time ago that you didn't believe that people were being told that they had to declare their preferred pronouns. They are, however, and I did find something that backed this up. I'm not digging it out for you again - if you go back to the right thread, it will be on there.

How is the transphobic lecturer parallel with a racist one? Racism is abhorrent, but not based on the idea that someone is saying they are something they are not. Someone who does not believe that TWAW is by no means necessarily transphobic. so there is no link. Neither has anything to do with the thread, in any case.

Have you decided which of your statements you are going to retract yet, btw?

Chewbacca it isn't just men
Transmen ask to be "He"
Transwomen ask to be "She"
Non-binary people ask to be "they"

Mollygo

DoodleDog I’ve read all your posts and your patience astounds me. Chewbacca I’ll second what you said in your post at 17:56.
Trisher, who has said that black people should put up with a racist lecturer on this thread? What has that to do with either the OP or the discussion about whether some transwomen are real and some are only pretend?
The point has been made about some vocal TP and their supporters saying not only that they wish to be referred to by certain pronouns, but insisting that others not involved must declare their pronouns too.
Question: Do you really endorse a minority having that sort of authority over all others?
Yes or no will do.

Actually I have never seen or heard anyone say that someone must state their preferred pronoun. This is because transpeople recognise that someone may be undecided or in transition and not yet comfortable sharing. Could you tell me where you got that info from?

The racist lecturer is a parallel with transphobic lecturers. If someone doesn't treat black people as equals they shouldn'tbe teaching them . If someone doesn't recognise transpeople they shouldn't be teaching them.

DoodleDog I’ve read all your posts and your patience astounds me. Chewbacca I’ll second what you said in your post at 17:56.
Trisher, who has said that black people should put up with a racist lecturer on this thread? What has that to do with either the OP or the discussion about whether some transwomen are real and some are only pretend?
The point has been made about some vocal TP and their supporters saying not only that they wish to be referred to by certain pronouns, but insisting that others not involved must declare their pronouns too.
Question: Do you really endorse a minority having that sort of authority over all others?
Yes or no will do.

I couldn't give a flying to be fair trisher because I'm confident enough in my own skin not to have to demand approbation or validation from others in order to confirm that I exist. Nor would I be seeking to make it a law that you address me as I demand; neither my ego, nor my sense of self importance, is so inflated to require that. So from your response, I think we're getting closer to what it is that these men need/want/desire/demand: they're all wearing the emperor's new clothes; they're actually stark naked but, to be polite, we should all admire their non existent clothes. Got it!

Did you really read Chewbacca's post Doodledog because I think she has said a lot of the things you say no-one has.

Finally, student fees have nothing to do with the case - people should be treated respectfully regardless of money, and the relationship between a student and a lecturer should not be a transactional one where politeness and respect depends on payment.
That's probably true but if you are the one dishing out thousands you might think differently.
What about a racist lecturer would you expect black students to put up with him?

You say that we should differentiate between sex and gender - but that is precisely what Gender Criticism does!

For the millionth time, nobody is saying that transpeople shouldn't be acknowledged, or their pronouns used. It is when they (or their supporters, such as Stonewall) insist that everyone declares their pronouns that I object. Not everyone wants to do so, and there is no reason why they should have to do it, simply to make transpeople less self-conscious.

I'm not sure what view of life you think I 'envisage', but so far, so good, so long as I can keep my pronouns to myself, and don't have to accept that transwomen are the same was women.

The bit about reframing trauma is assumption central again, though. No, I wouldn't want to do any of the things you suggest (why would I?), but nor do I leap to the conclusion that rape victims are in any way to blame - there is often no 'why', other than a combination of means and motive in the rapist. The assumption that I would discount any explanation of anything 'simply because it was a transwoman' who suggested it is ludicrous and offensive.

Again, nobody is saying that 'woman' and 'mother' 'must' be used by anyone. Just that they are words for adult human females, and should stay that way. Women will often prefer not to be called 'cervix havers' or similar, and they too should be respected. Why would anyone insist that their vocabulary be mangled?

Finally, student fees have nothing to do with the case - people should be treated respectfully regardless of money, and the relationship between a student and a lecturer should not be a transactional one where politeness and respect depends on payment.

Chewbacca

^The words woman and mother were words transmen didn't want to use. Why would you insist^ they must?

Why are their "wants" superseding what women want? You say that trans are in the minority? If that's the case, why have the "wants" of 50% of the human race got to be altered/amended/erased just to accommodate that minority?

It's just a form of politeness

It's impolite to demand that the rest of us collude with them. They can believe whatever they wish; nothing stopping them from believing they're unicorns if they want to. But why do they need the validation of the rest of society to also believe it, and to address them as Unicorn, when everyone knows that they're no such thing. Why do their needs trump my needs of not suspending reality?

If I chose to address you as "Chewness" or "Chewbeggar" you would quite rightly tell me I've got it wrong. You may be called whatever you wish. It would be nice if you could give the same respect to others. It's how civilised societies work.
The same applies to the next question Perhaps I will start calling you "Chewbeggar" I think it would suit me better. I don't see why I should collude with you and suspend my reality for you. Is that OK?

The words woman and mother were words transmen didn't want to use. Why would you insist they must?

Why are their "wants" superseding what women want? You say that trans are in the minority? If that's the case, why have the "wants" of 50% of the human race got to be altered/amended/erased just to accommodate that minority?

It's just a form of politeness

It's impolite to demand that the rest of us collude with them. They can believe whatever they wish; nothing stopping them from believing they're unicorns if they want to. But why do they need the validation of the rest of society to also believe it, and to address them as Unicorn, when everyone knows that they're no such thing. Why do their needs trump my needs of not suspending reality?

Chewbacca your post sums up my feelings too. Absolutely spot on.

OMG do I have to go through all that tosh
Well for a start you need to distinguish between sex and gender and accept that asking that you be treated as the gender you identfy as is nothing to do with your sex. You could identify as a woman, a man or non-binary all should be ackowledged and your pronoun of choice used. It's just a form of politeness. Some women choose to be addressed as Ms that's their choice it should be recognised so should pronouns.
So nothing to do with sex and nothing delusional simply a different view of life and people's roles than you envisage.

I'm not sure why you consider that transpeople are not doing any of the things you demand of them. One possibility is of course that recognising the animosity still held by many they choose to keep a low profile.

I see "reframing trauma" has been resurrected as a form of dismissal again. So when a women has been abused rather than helping her to look at her life, examine what has happened and why she became a victim (which is what reframing trauma means) you would apparently send her out unprotected to repeat the cycle of abuse (which is what usually happens). Simply because it was a transwomen who suggested the necessary help.

The words woman and mother were words transmen didn't want to use. Why would you insist they must?

If someone is in a position where they will encounter and deal with transpeople and they cannot treat those people with respect then they shouldn't be working with them. Would you permit a racist lecturer to teach black students? especially now that students are paying huge fees-He who pays the piper...

Time to cook