Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

I did not say that I saw was no feminism in the miners' movement. I said that it was not feminism that was driving it. There is a difference.

You really would start an argument in an empty room, wouldn't you? For the hundredth time, the strike was just an example, an analogy. I have not drawn conclusions from it..

Let's try again. Take the (fictional) example of four women in the Hometown WI. A is a proud supporter of women's rights, and is also a Methodist who votes Conservative. She sets up a local Church-based group who buy and deliver Christmas presents to elderly members of the congregation who live alone. No preference is given to female members, although there are more of them, but all recipients are members of local churches.

B is also a proud supporter of women's rights. She is atheist and votes Green. She raises money for an organisation that provides solar lighting to a remote village in Yemen. Women in the village have few rights, and most are illiterate, so B has to negotiate with the men, who make all the decisions.

What about Caroline? C is a proud supporter of women's rights, and runs a DV refuge for women and children. She is also a Catholic with Pro-Life beliefs. She and her daughters have campaigned against the siting of a sexual health clinic in the local area, and have travelled to an abortion clinic to protest outside.

Or Diane? D is a feminist and local Tory councillor. The (Tory) town council has cut the SS budget, and reduced the amount they allocate to C's refuge, as there is not enough money to fund both this and the Allotment Society, which is known to be a source of support to many retired men in the area. C has lobbied the council to ask that the cuts be reversed, but D is aware that many voters are more in favour of the Allotments, so she votes against the reversal.

A. B, C and D are all on the WI committee, and all are in favour of a party for the children on a local council estate which has a lot of disadvantaged families. They work tirelessly to organise the party, and ensure that the subsidised ticket price includes a present from Santa for each child, and give out free tickets to users of the local food bank, which they also all support.

Which (if any) of these women's actions are driven by feminism? What about the others? What is driving them?

Welcome Seasidelass, to the strange land of “when in doubt deviate”.
The land of being told what you are and are not entitled to do (see trisher’s post above) and the land where anything you say may be assumed to be an offensive assumption by certain posters.
Don’t let it put you off.

'Gender expression' of female people = fine.
'Gender expression' of male people = also fine, unless they claim to be female people.

Agree with trisher, Seasidegirl. Intersectional feminism was a development of the feminist movement at the end of the 1980s/beginning of the 1990s. It came about because feminism had increasingly been seen as a movement which prioritised the position of white, middle-class women, not addressing the needs of women of colour, of lower classes or nationalities other than Western, or of other gender expressions.

Intersectional feminism supports equality of everyone.

Seasidelass

Hi I'm new to gransnet and having read this thread have a feeling that making my first post here could be a baptism of fire but here goes.

I've read this thread with a mixture of dismay, disbelief, amusement and admiration.

My admiration for those who have had the patience to continue to put forward their balanced and intelligent arguments in the face of, well how should I put it, quite the opposite.

So many references to feminism being for white, middle class educated women. The movement was started by them no doubt, as they were the only ones in a position to do so, but to claim that is still about one section of women in society is laughable.

As is the claim that middle class white women deny the experiences of other women, based on class structure. I find this entire 'argument' bewildering especially in a conversation about a pervert claiming to be a woman, despite the fact that his act of bestiality could only have been performed as a man, which could mean him being incarcerated in a woman's prison.

As I said, I am new here. Am I missing something?

Well welcome to GN Seasidegirl perhaps you could elucidate about who has said feminism was only for white middle class women? If you are referring to my remarks about intersectional feminism it in fact does entirely the opposite. It proposes a feminism that is for all but which recognises there are degrees of oppression and degrees of privilege which influence our views. There's an illustration to show it earlier in this thread. It's something I have come to increasingly believe and the more I become involved in these discussions the more it matters. The denial of the genuine working class women's movement during the miners strike as a feminist movement really struck a chord with me to show what intersectional feminism deals with.
Sorry if you don't like discussions which wander. For me feminism is all about discussing and trying to find common ground although sometimes it is bloody hard.

Please stop patronising me with links to others' perspectives on the pit closures. I have lived experience to draw on and am happy with my own perspective
Is this not denying others experiences?
Your experience may not have included feminismDoodledog but others experiences certainly did. You are entitled to say "I saw no feminism in the miners wives movement". You are not entitled to say "there was no feminism in the movement" because others have written about what happened and expressed different views. In denying any evidence of feminism you are, however inadvertently, denying their views. You also seem to think I am questioning your account. Your account is as valid as any other but the conclusions you draw from it are not supported by other evidence.

Thank you for the welcome Doodledog, I have fastened my seat belt for what may be a rather bumpy "trip through the looking glass".

I am not entitled to deny others' experiences (which I am not doing), but you can deny mine, Anniebach's, and anyone else's as you see fit?

The arrogance is breathtaking.

Seasidelass, sadly no, you are not missing anything. Your analysis seems to be spot on. These threads often feel like a (bad) trip through the looking glass. Welcome to Wonderland.

Anniebach

What ? feminists AND working class women , bloody insulting ?

Betty Cook's words Annie. Link posted twice.

Doodledog

Are you denying my experiences, trisher? Or those of Anniebach?

How dare you tell me that I am denying the experience of 'others'. I was one of them, and am denying nothing. What gives you the right to define my experience and tell me that your view is the valid one? I know who is displaying privilege here, and it most certainly is not me.

It's not my views I'm basing this on Doodledog I linked to Betty Cook before. Listen to her. You are entitled to disagree with her but not to completely deny her (and many other women's ) experiences www.bl.uk/people/betty-cook

What ? feminists AND working class women , bloody insulting ?

Germanshepherdsmum

I’ve been following the argument though haven’t posted until now. The claim in your last post astounded me trisher.

I only posted that because I was so shocked that anyone would deny the feminist connection GSM I really don't understand this "feminism is only about supporting women" attitude. And denying the account of Betty Cook I linked to or the experiences of those women is just astounding.
Feminism is about women organising, acting, speaking out. Its about empowering women. The cause they are supporting or the actions they are opposing are secondary. It might be women, but it could be children, or in this case pit closures. This was a time when feminists and working class women united and it was a feminist movement led by women. I don't understand how any woman could deny that.

Hi I'm new to gransnet and having read this thread have a feeling that making my first post here could be a baptism of fire but here goes.

I've read this thread with a mixture of dismay, disbelief, amusement and admiration.

My admiration for those who have had the patience to continue to put forward their balanced and intelligent arguments in the face of, well how should I put it, quite the opposite.

So many references to feminism being for white, middle class educated women. The movement was started by them no doubt, as they were the only ones in a position to do so, but to claim that is still about one section of women in society is laughable.

As is the claim that middle class white women deny the experiences of other women, based on class structure. I find this entire 'argument' bewildering especially in a conversation about a pervert claiming to be a woman, despite the fact that his act of bestiality could only have been performed as a man, which could mean him being incarcerated in a woman's prison.

As I said, I am new here. Am I missing something?

During the strike police officers from a force where my husband had been a police officer came to Aberfan, I was given a reminder I was a police widow and should not be ‘out there’ ,

I was the daughter, granddaughter, g granddaughter, g.g. granddaughter, niece, cousin of coal miners ,

No lectures from feminists saving my village for me thanks

I was hundreds of miles away from any pits, at the time of the strike, but I remember reading about the feminist support in Spare Rib.
It was about women standing up for themselves and their families, in the bigger situation of the miners' livelihoods.

I’ve been following the argument though haven’t posted until now. The claim in your last post astounded me trisher.

Are you denying my experiences, trisher? Or those of Anniebach?

How dare you tell me that I am denying the experience of 'others'. I was one of them, and am denying nothing. What gives you the right to define my experience and tell me that your view is the valid one? I know who is displaying privilege here, and it most certainly is not me.

I am actually shocked that anyone would deny that feminism ran through the actions of those women. It reinforces my intersectional feminism beliefs because I suddenly come to see that middle class white women will deny the experiences of other women, presumably because they are working class, and insist that their views on what happened are the only valid ones. There's absolutely nothing feminist about that. It's all about privilege.

Of course there is a connection between feminism and the miner's strike. Or are you denying the experiences of Betty Cook?
Or the anthem "Women of the Working Class"
www.solfed.org.uk/solfed/women-of-the-working-class
"Where Women's Liberation failed to move this strike has mobilised"
For you it may have nothing to do with feminism others had a different experience.

Doodledog, re your post to trisher at 12:07, I hate to say it but you are wasting your breath. trisher will never recognise that feminism is about supporting women, sorry, females, and that women can and do, do all the other good things mentioned on this thread, not because they are feminists, but because they are good people. The implication that you have to be a feminist to do any of the good things mentioned is the most discriminatory idea from any poster.

Ah I was just about to make that point about the gay community but you did it better than I could have done. And much more briefly than I would have done

Thank you for understanding. I was beginning to wonder if I'd lost the ability to communicate?

Doodledog

There is no connection between feminism and the miners strike, we had support from the gay community too , they were
not giving support because they were gay.

You are so right, we were supporting men , we were also fighting for our mining communities, fearful of mass unemployment .

Wow, trisher that Pink News article is absolute drivel.
Have you really been under the illusion that some on this thread have the views claimed in that article?
Have you really disregarded everything we've been saying, in favour of believing that?
If so, why?

Oh, and trisher, is there any need for the 'perhaps'? Are you trying to be offensive, or is it something that comes naturally? Are you really suggesting that I am lying about what I was doing in 1984? Your mind works in very strange ways.